Winning after Qf6+!

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jp
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by jp » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:31 pm

zullil wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:54 am
peter wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:34 am
27.h4 is still drawn, but 27...Nd6 (?) (...Nxd4 instead holds) loses, yet not as soon as after 28..Qd8( ?) (better 28...Ne8).
Hi Peter, Are you saying that White wins here?



Stockfish-dev isn't seeing it.
Hang on... After which moves from the starting position is all this (27.h4 etc.)?

peter
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Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by peter » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:34 pm

Hi Louis!
zullil wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:54 am
peter wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:34 am

27.h4 is still drawn, but 27...Nd6 (?) (...Nxd4 instead holds) loses, yet not as soon as after 28..Qd8( ?) (better 28...Ne8).
Are you saying that White wins here?



Stockfish-dev isn't seeing it.
Actually I was writing about this one line (taken from Fat- Fritz- output)

22. Qf6+ Bxf6 23.gxf6+ Kg8 24. Ng5 Nxa3 25. Rxh7 Nb5 26. Rg7+ Kh8 27. h4 Nd6

and this one position:



Analysis by asmFishWCP_2019-10-11_popcnt:

28.Th7+ Kg8 29.Lg3 Dd8 30.Tg7+ Kh8 31.Kg2 Se8 32.Txf7 Txf7 33.Sxf7+ Kh7 34.Sxd8 Txd8 35.h5 g5 36.Tf1 Sc7 37.Le1 Tb8 38.f7 a3 39.bxa3 b2 40.Ld2 La4 41.Tb1 Kg7 42.h6+ Kxh6 43.Txb2 Tf8 44.Tb1 Lc2 45.Tf1 Lf5 46.Kg3 Kg6 47.Th1 Kxf7 48.Lxg5 Tg8 49.Lh5+ Kf8 50.Kf4 Sb5 51.Tc1 Sxa3 52.Ta1 Sb5 53.Lf6 Tg6 54.Lxg6 Lxg6 55.Tc1 Ke8 56.Ke3 Kd7 57.Kd2 Sa3 58.Lh4 Lf5 59.Le1 Lb1 60.Ke2 Kc7 61.Ke3 Kc6 62.Lh4 Lg6 63.Tf1
+- (1.96) Tiefe: 40/77 00:02:00 3458MN

But it differs from your position only by the one 28.Rh7+ Kg8 already in the new output, and Bh3 could be played already there as well, so not much difference.
Peter.

peter
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by peter » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:06 pm

peter wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:34 pm
and Bh3 could be played already there as well,
Typo: Bg3, not Bh3. Anyhow Bg3 already works from your position onwards as well, even already from 27.h4 Nd6(?) at once.
Peter.

zullil
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by zullil » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:32 pm

jp wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:31 pm
zullil wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:54 am
peter wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:34 am
27.h4 is still drawn, but 27...Nd6 (?) (...Nxd4 instead holds) loses, yet not as soon as after 28..Qd8( ?) (better 28...Ne8).
Hi Peter, Are you saying that White wins here?



Stockfish-dev isn't seeing it.
Hang on... After which moves from the starting position is all this (27.h4 etc.)?
Sorry for the confusion.

1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6



Stockfish-dev doesn't seem to see this as winning for White. Evaluation seems stable at 1.40 or so.

jp
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by jp » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:07 pm

peter wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:34 pm
22. Qf6+ Bxf6 23.gxf6+ Kg8 24. Ng5 Nxa3 25. Rxh7 Nb5 26. Rg7+ Kh8 27. h4 Nd6
and this one position:

1r3r1k/5pR1/1qbnpPp1/3pP1N1/p1pP3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 0 1

Analysis by asmFishWCP_2019-10-11_popcnt:

28.Th7+ Kg8 29.Lg3 Dd8 30.Tg7+ Kh8 31.Kg2 Se8 32.Txf7 Txf7 33.Sxf7+ Kh7 34.Sxd8 Txd8 35.h5 g5 36.Tf1 Sc7 37.Le1 Tb8 38.f7 a3 39.bxa3 b2 40.Ld2 La4 41.Tb1 Kg7 42.h6+ Kxh6 43.Txb2 Tf8 44.Tb1 Lc2 45.Tf1 Lf5 46.Kg3 Kg6 47.Th1 Kxf7 48.Lxg5 Tg8 49.Lh5+ Kf8 50.Kf4 Sb5 51.Tc1 Sxa3 52.Ta1 Sb5 53.Lf6 Tg6 54.Lxg6 Lxg6 55.Tc1 Ke8 56.Ke3 Kd7 57.Kd2 Sa3 58.Lh4 Lf5 59.Le1 Lb1 60.Ke2 Kc7 61.Ke3 Kc6 62.Lh4 Lg6 63.Tf1
+- (1.96) Tiefe: 40/77 00:02:00 3458MN

But it differs from your position only by the one 28.Rh7+ Kg8 already in the new output, and Bh3 could be played already there as well, so not much difference.
zullil wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:32 pm
1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6

1r3rk1/5p1R/1qbnpPp1/3pP1N1/p1pP3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 1 6

Stockfish-dev doesn't seem to see this as winning for White. Evaluation seems stable at 1.40 or so.
I also recall in some of the positions with Ng5 & Rxh7 that may be the same or similar, old SF with PV=2 was thinking that White had to give perpetual check on g7 or h7 or else Black would put a R on b7 guarding f7, and then move the R on f8, and then the Black K could escape and Black would win.

So I'd like to see how that sort of thing is avoided by White in these lines.

MikeGL
Posts: 901
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by MikeGL » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:16 pm

peter wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:34 pm
Hi Louis!
zullil wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:54 am
peter wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:34 am

27.h4 is still drawn, but 27...Nd6 (?) (...Nxd4 instead holds) loses, yet not as soon as after 28..Qd8( ?) (better 28...Ne8).
Are you saying that White wins here?



Stockfish-dev isn't seeing it.
Actually I was writing about this one line (taken from Fat- Fritz- output)

22. Qf6+ Bxf6 23.gxf6+ Kg8 24. Ng5 Nxa3 25. Rxh7 Nb5 26. Rg7+ Kh8 27. h4 Nd6

and this one position:



Analysis by asmFishWCP_2019-10-11_popcnt:

28.Th7+ Kg8 29.Lg3 Dd8 30.Tg7+ Kh8 31.Kg2 Se8 32.Txf7 Txf7 33.Sxf7+ Kh7 34.Sxd8 Txd8 35.h5 g5 36.Tf1 Sc7 37.Le1 Tb8 38.f7 a3 39.bxa3 b2 40.Ld2 La4 41.Tb1 Kg7 42.h6+ Kxh6 43.Txb2 Tf8 44.Tb1 Lc2 45.Tf1 Lf5 46.Kg3 Kg6 47.Th1 Kxf7 48.Lxg5 Tg8 49.Lh5+ Kf8 50.Kf4 Sb5 51.Tc1 Sxa3 52.Ta1 Sb5 53.Lf6 Tg6 54.Lxg6 Lxg6 55.Tc1 Ke8 56.Ke3 Kd7 57.Kd2 Sa3 58.Lh4 Lf5 59.Le1 Lb1 60.Ke2 Kc7 61.Ke3 Kc6 62.Lh4 Lg6 63.Tf1
+- (1.96) Tiefe: 40/77 00:02:00 3458MN

But it differs from your position only by the one 28.Rh7+ Kg8 already in the new output, and Bh3 could be played already there as well, so not much difference.
Thanks peter,
Does this mean Ng5 line instead of Bd2 also wins?



Endgame at the end of this line looks winning for white.
I told my wife that a husband is like a fine wine; he gets better with age. The next day, she locked me in the cellar.

peter
Posts: 1803
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by peter » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:45 pm

MikeGL wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:16 pm
Does this mean Ng5 line instead of Bd2 also wins?
No, that was after a blunder of Black again,

22. Qf6+ Bxf6 23. gxf6+ Kg8 24. Ng5 (?) Nxa3 25. Rxh7 Nb5 26. Rg7+ Kh8 27. h4 Nd6 ?

It was just an output- line of Fat Fritz.

viewtopic.php?p=815375#p815375
peter wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:34 am
...
BTW Fat Fritz at 2xRTX2080 4 threads and 2G hash sticked to 24.Ng5(?) still after 10 minutes, stopped it then.

1r3r2/4bpkp/1qb1p1p1/3pP1P1/p1pP1Q2/PpP2N1R/1Pn1B2P/3RB2K w - - 0 1

Analysis by Fat Fritz v1.22.2:

22.Df6+ Lxf6 23.gxf6+ Kg8 24.Sg5 h5 25.Lxh5 Sxa3 26.Lf2 Tb7 27.Lf3 Sb5 28.Th7 Sd6 29.Tg7+ Kh8 30.Th7+ Kg8 31.Tg1 Se8 32.Tg4 Dd8 33.Tf4 a3 34.Le3 axb2 35.Tfh4 Dxf6 36.exf6 b1D+
+- (2.04) Tiefe: 17/40 00:00:07 204kN
...
22.Df6+ Lxf6 23.gxf6+ Kg8 24.Sg5 Sxa3 25.Txh7 Sb5 26.Tg7+ Kh8 27.h4 Sd6 28.Kg2 Dd8 29.Lg3 a3 30.h5 Se4 31.Tf1 axb2 32.Th7+ Kg8 33.hxg6 Sxf6 34.exf6 b1D 35.Tg7+ Kh8 36.Tf4 Dxf6 37.Th7+ Kg8 38.Txf6 Dc2 39.gxf7+ Txf7 40.Tfxf7 Dxe2+ 41.Kh3 Tb7 42.Thg7+ Kh8 43.Le5 De3+ 44.Kh2 De2+ 45.Kg3 De3+ 46.Kg4 De2+ 47.Kg3 De1+ 48.Kg4 De2+ 49.Kh4 De1+ 50.Kh5 Dd1+ 51.Kg6 Db1+ 52.Kh5 Dh1+ 53.Kg4 Dg1+ 54.Kh5 Dh1+ 55.Kg4 Dg1+ 56.Kh4 De1+ 57.Kh3 Dh1+ 58.Kg3 Dg1+ 59.Kh4
+/- (1.21) Tiefe: 41/86 00:10:29 21130kN, tb=166

27.h4 is still drawn, but 27...Nd6 (?) (...Nxd4 instead holds) loses, yet not as soon as after 28..Qd8( ?) (better 28...Ne8).
Last edited by peter on Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Peter.

jp
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by jp » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:50 pm

MikeGL wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:16 pm
Thanks peter,
Does this mean Ng5 line instead of Bd2 also wins?
That line after ...Nd6 may still be unclear, but anyway Peter posted on the first page that "...Nxd4 instead [of ... Nd6 (?)] holds".

Edit: see Peter's post above. FF does not come out of this looking good.

peter
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Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by peter » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:56 pm

zullil wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:32 pm

1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6



Stockfish-dev doesn't seem to see this as winning for White. Evaluation seems stable at 1.40 or so.
Try to give in 6. (27.) Bg3 at once already there and then wait and see.

To be sure, not to be misunderstood again, that works only after 5... (26...) Nd6 (?), not after 5...Nxd4, which draws again.
Peter.

zullil
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Location: PA USA
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by zullil » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:04 pm

peter wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:56 pm
zullil wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:32 pm

1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6



Stockfish-dev doesn't seem to see this as winning for White. Evaluation seems stable at 1.40 or so.
Try to give in 6. (27.) Bg3 at once already there and then wait and see.

To be sure, not to be misunderstood again, that works only after 5... (26...) Nd6 (?), not after 5...Nxd4, which draws again.
Stockfish-dev has the following:


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