1.g4 opening is losing?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: bob, hgm, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
User avatar
Ovyron
Posts: 3827
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:30 am

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Ovyron » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:30 am

Zenmastur wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:57 am
I down loaded all your games a few months ago and analyzed them.
Doubtful, most of my games happened at Rybka Forum, with the ICCF games being a small fraction. But there's no easy way to download them, so not even I have all my games.

User avatar
Ovyron
Posts: 3827
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:30 am

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Ovyron » Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:41 am

Zenmastur wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:02 pm
OK! When your done post it and we'll have a look at what you've got.
Okay, I'm giving up as it's too much work and I no longer deem that the prize would be worth it (I thought you thought you'd be able to hold 1.g4 to a draw but if you think it's lost and I think it's lost the game becomes superfluous.) From the point the challenge was posted to this point I checked the problem daily, now with a learn file that would beat any defense at 1 second/move, which should be enough no matter how long the mate ends up being.

Zenmastur
Posts: 781
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Zenmastur » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:14 am

Ovyron wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:41 am
Zenmastur wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:02 pm
OK! When your done post it and we'll have a look at what you've got.
Okay, I'm giving up as it's too much work and I no longer deem that the prize would be worth it (I thought you thought you'd be able to hold 1.g4 to a draw but if you think it's lost and I think it's lost the game becomes superfluous.) From the point the challenge was posted to this point I checked the problem daily, now with a learn file that would beat any defense at 1 second/move, which should be enough no matter how long the mate ends up being.
It makes me sick thinking about all the time I wasted getting ready to beat you in the grob. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm somewhat disappointed, but, I guess if you can't do it, then you can't do it. I actually shortened the problem to make it easier for you to find. I guess I should have made it a little shorter.

If I could find a "reasonable" defense I'd be more than happy to take a stab at it. But, the positions I'm finding aren't tenable. I've looked at so many positions they all seem the same, and they all lose. E.g. how would you like to try to defend this position



or this one:


etc, etc! I've looked as so many of them they all look the same. I haven't found a single line of play that leads to a position that I thought I could defend. And I've looked at hundreds of such positions. They all have one thing in common, they all lose.

I've looked at lines from 2.g5, 2.Bg2, 2.c4, 2.d4, 2.e4, 2.e3, 2.h3, 2.Nf3, and 2.Nc3. I've done deep reverse analysis on the lines that lead to these positions in the hopes of finding an improvement that will allow a more equal ending. Nothing helps. The position is beyond repair.

But, if Zullil thinks he can defend the position I would let him try.

Now to the problem. Does anyone want to post "their" solution before I post mine? If so, now is the time to do it.

Regards,

Zenmastur
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Uri Blass
Posts: 8730
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Uri Blass » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:52 am

No proving mate but some analysis that I did(of course did not use most of the time for analysis)
analysis suggest mate in at most 28 moves in case black choose 37...Qf6

[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "URIBLASS-THINK"]
[Date "2020.02.26"]
[Round "?"]
[White "UriBlass"]
[Black "Houdini_3_x64"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "2400"]
[Time "17:35:09"]
[WhiteElo "2400"]
[TimeControl "300+5"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "2b3k1/r2r2p1/p1N1q3/1B6/3p4/2b1B2R/PPP5/2K4R w - - 0 36"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "13"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

36. Rh8+ Kf7 37. Rf1+ {option 1} Qf5 (37. .. Qf6 {option 2} 38. Bc4+ {mate
in at most 26} Rd5 {option 2.1} (38. .. Kg6 {option 2.2} 39. Ne5+ {mate in
at most 20} Qxe5 40. Bd3+ {mate in at most 19} Qf5 41. Bxf5+ {mate in at
most 18} Kf7 {option 2.2.1} (41. .. Kf6 {option 2.2.2} 42. Bxd7+ Ke7 43.
Bg5+ {same as 2.2.1 so is not analyzed}) 42. Bxd7+ {mate in at most 17} Ke7
43. Bg5+ {mate in at most 16} Kxd7 {option 2.2.1.1} (43. .. Kd6 {option
2.2.1.2} 44. Bxc8 {proved mate in 14} Bb4 45. Re8 {mate in 13} Kc6 46. Re6+
{mate in 12} Bd6 47. Rf8 {mate in 11} Rd7 48. Bf4 {mate in exactly 10
moves} Kc7 49. Bxd7 {mate in exactly 9 moves}) 44. Rf7+ {mate in 15} Ke6
45. Rxa7 {mate in 14} Be1 (45. .. Bb4 46. Rxc8) (45. .. Kf5) (45. .. Bxb2+
46. Kxb2 {mate in 11} Bd7 (46. .. Kf5 47. Rxc8 {mate in 10 moves} Kxg5 48.
Rc5+ {mate in exactly 9 moves}) 47. Rd8 {mate in 10} Bc6 48. Re7+ {mate in
exactly 9 moves}) 46. Rxc8 {mate in 12} Kf5 (46. .. Bg3 47. Rc5 {mate in
11} Kd6 48. b4 {mate in 10 chest} Ke6 (48. .. a5 49. Rxg7 {mate in 9}) (48.
.. Bh2 49. Kd2 {mate in 8}) (48. .. g6 49. Kd2 {mate in 8}) (48. .. d3 49.
c4 {mate in 7}) 49. Kd2) (46. .. Bb4 47. Rxg7 {mate in 11} Kd5 (47. .. d3
48. cxd3 {mate in 9 chest}) (47. .. Bd6 48. Rg6+ {mate in 9 chest}) (47. ..
a5 48. Re8+ {mate in 9 chest}) (47. .. Ke5 48. Re8+ {mate in 9 chest}) (47.
.. Kf5 48. Be7 {mate in 9 chest} Be1 49. Rc6) (47. .. Kd6 48. Bd2 {mate in
9 chest}) (47. .. Ba5 48. Re8+ {mate in 9 chest}) 48. Bd2 {verified mate in
10 by 2 engines} Bd6 (48. .. a5) (48. .. Ke6) (48. .. Ke5) 49. Rd8 {mate in
9 chest}) 47. Rc5+ {verified mate in 11} Kg6 (47. .. Kg4 48. Rxg7 {mate in
9 chest}) (47. .. Ke6) (47. .. Ke4) 48. Rxa6+ {verified mate in 10} Kh7
(48. .. Kh5) (48. .. Kf7) 49. Bh4 {mate in 9} Bxh4) 39. Bxd5+ {mate in at
most 25} Be6 {option 2.1.1} (39. .. Kg6 {option 2.1.2} 40. Rg1+ {mate in at
most 21} Kf5 {option 2.1.2.1} (40. .. Bg4 {option 2.1.2.2} 41. Rxg4+ {mate
in at most 20} Kf5 42. Rf4+ {mate in at most 19} Kg6 {option 2.1.2.2.1}
(42. .. Kg5 {option 2.1.2.2.2} 43. Rxf6+ {mate in at most 13} dxe3 44. Rf1
{mate in at most 13}) 43. Rxf6+ gxf6 44. bxc3 {mate in at most 17}) 41.
Rh5+ {mate in at most 20} g5 42. Bxg5 {mate in at most 19} Qg6 43. Rf1+
{mate in at most 18} Kg4 44. Bf3+ {mate in at most 17} Kf5 45. Be7+ {mate
in at most 16} Qxh5 46. Bxh5+ {mate in at most 15} Ke4 47. Bf3+ {mate in at
most 14} Kf5 {option 2.1.2.1.1} (47. .. Kf4 {option 2.1.2.1.2} 48. Bd5+
{mate in at most 13} Kg3 49. Rf3+ {mate in at most 12} Kg2 50. Rxc3+ {mate
in at most 11} Kg1 51. Rg3+ {mate in at most 10} Kh2 52. Rg2+ {mate in at
most 9}) 48. Bd5+ {mate in at most 13}) 40. Bxe6+ {mate in 24} Kxe6 41.
Rxf6+ {mate in 23} gxf6 {option 2.1.1.1} (41. .. Kxf6 {option 2.1.1.2} 42.
Nxa7 {mate in at most 22} Bb4 (42. .. Ba5) (42. .. Be1) 43. Bxd4+ {mate in
at most 21}) 42. Nxa7 {mate in at most 22} Be1 (42. .. Bb4 43. Bxd4 {mate
in at most 21} Bd6 44. Kd2 {mate in at most 20}) (42. .. Ba5 43. Bxd4 {mate
in at most 21} f5 (43. .. Bc7 44. Kd2 Bd6 45. Kd3 {mate in at most 19}) 44.
Nc6 {mate in at most 19} Bc7 45. Be5 Bxe5 46. Re8+ {mate in at most 17})
(42. .. Bxb2+ 43. Kxb2 {mate in at most 20} dxe3 44. Re8+ {mate in at most
19}) 43. Bxd4 {mate in at most 20} Bg3 (43. .. Kf5 44. Nc6 {mate in at most
19} a5 (44. .. Bg3 45. Ra8 {mate in at most 18}) 45. Ra8 {mate in at most
18}) (43. .. Kd6) (43. .. Kd7) (43. .. Ba5 44. Rh6 {mate in at most 19})
44. Kd2 {mate in at most 19} Bf4+ 45. Kd3 {mate in at most 18} a5 46. Ra8
{mate in at most 17}) 38. Rxf5+ Kg6 {option 1.1} (38. .. Ke6 {option 1.2}
39. Re5+ Kd6 40. Bf4) 39. Rg5+ Kf6 40. Bd3 dxe3 {option 1.1.1} (40. ..
Bxb2+ {option 1.1.2} 41. Kxb2 {mate in 18} dxe3 {option 1.1.2.1} (41. ..
Rab7+ {option 1.1.2.2} 42. Kc1 {mate in 17} dxe3 43. Rg6+ Kf7 44. Ne5+ Ke7
45. Rxg7+ {mate in 14} Kd6 46. Rg6+ {mate in 13} Kc5 47. Nxd7+ {mate in 12}
Rxd7 48. Rxc8+ {mate in 11} Kd5 49. Bc4+ {mate in 10}) 42. Rg6+ {mate in
16} Kf7 43. Ne5+ Ke7 44. Rxg7+ Kd6 45. Rg6+ Kc5 46. Rxc8+ Kd5 47. Nxd7 Rxd7
48. Re8 {mate in 10}) 41. Rg6+ Kf7 42. bxc3 *

User avatar
Ovyron
Posts: 3827
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:30 am

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Ovyron » Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:12 am

Zenmastur wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:14 am
I haven't found a single line of play that leads to a position that I thought I could defend.
The only one I saw was the one against Harvey where he plays 36...Rxb7 instead of 36...Rxd4:



At least I could defend it against Stockfish low depth, which is more than I can say about all the other variations that didn't need a move like 36...Rxd4 to die.

(but I know it's losing now...)

If Zullil doesn't want to defend 1.g4 I was thinking about a different challenge: Mate Odds. We agree that if black can't mate white in a certain amount of moves the game is adjudicated as draw. The catch is that one player sets Mate in N as a number that pleases them, and the other picks a color, so the first one has to pick N extremely careful as a bad choice of N means they get a guaranteed bad outcome!

zullil
Posts: 5965
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by zullil » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:54 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:12 am

If Zullil doesn't want to defend 1.g4 I was thinking about a different challenge: Mate Odds. We agree that if black can't mate white in a certain amount of moves the game is adjudicated as draw. The catch is that one player sets Mate in N as a number that pleases them, and the other picks a color, so the first one has to pick N extremely careful as a bad choice of N means they get a guaranteed bad outcome!
Frankly, I was hoping that Zenmastur would play White and try to draw from 1. g4. His hardware is now superior to mine (I think), and he is an experienced correspondence chess player. I'm not, and wouldn't have the time to do anything more than send moves chosen by Stockfish-dev, with no actual review or assessment by me.

Zenmastur
Posts: 781
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Zenmastur » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:55 pm

zullil wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:54 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:12 am

If Zullil doesn't want to defend 1.g4 I was thinking about a different challenge: Mate Odds. We agree that if black can't mate white in a certain amount of moves the game is adjudicated as draw. The catch is that one player sets Mate in N as a number that pleases them, and the other picks a color, so the first one has to pick N extremely careful as a bad choice of N means they get a guaranteed bad outcome!
Frankly, I was hoping that Zenmastur would play White and try to draw from 1. g4. His hardware is now superior to mine (I think), and he is an experienced correspondence chess player. I'm not, and wouldn't have the time to do anything more than send moves chosen by Stockfish-dev, with no actual review or assessment by me.
You should at least show us your mating line for Ovyron's problem before I reveal mine.

I hate to think that all the analysis I did on 1.g4 lines would go to waste but honestly I haven't found a single line that "looks" playable. I'm doing one last deep pass in the hopes of finding a "NEW" move to save the day. But I'm not very hopeful.

I guess I could make Ovy play white since he failed to solve the mate in "X"! :D :D :D
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

zullil
Posts: 5965
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by zullil » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:01 pm

Zenmastur wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:55 pm
zullil wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:54 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:12 am

If Zullil doesn't want to defend 1.g4 I was thinking about a different challenge: Mate Odds. We agree that if black can't mate white in a certain amount of moves the game is adjudicated as draw. The catch is that one player sets Mate in N as a number that pleases them, and the other picks a color, so the first one has to pick N extremely careful as a bad choice of N means they get a guaranteed bad outcome!
Frankly, I was hoping that Zenmastur would play White and try to draw from 1. g4. His hardware is now superior to mine (I think), and he is an experienced correspondence chess player. I'm not, and wouldn't have the time to do anything more than send moves chosen by Stockfish-dev, with no actual review or assessment by me.
You should at least show us your mating line for Ovyron's problem before I reveal mine.

I hate to think that all the analysis I did on 1.g4 lines would go to waste but honestly I haven't found a single line that "looks" playable. I'm doing one last deep pass in the hopes of finding a "NEW" move to save the day. But I'm not very hopeful.

I guess I could make Ovy play white since he failed to solve the mate in "X"! :D :D :D
Best Stockfish found for me was mate-in-28, but I offered no assistance in an attempt to improve on that. Another forum member shared with me a mate-in-27; I've suggested that he post it here.

For now, why don't you just tell us your N, as in mate-in-N?

jp
Posts: 1254
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by jp » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:13 pm

zullil wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:01 pm
Frankly, I was hoping that Zenmastur would play White and try to draw from 1. g4.
<snip>
For now, why don't you just tell us your N, as in mate-in-N?
There is still some hope. If Zenmastur's N is wrong, then I guess morally he has to play White!

The other good White candidate is Uri!

Zenmastur
Posts: 781
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Zenmastur » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:35 pm

jp wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:13 pm
zullil wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:01 pm
Frankly, I was hoping that Zenmastur would play White and try to draw from 1. g4.
<snip>
For now, why don't you just tell us your N, as in mate-in-N?
There is still some hope. If Zenmastur's N is wrong, then I guess morally he has to play White!

The other good White candidate is Uri!
Sorry, that's not how it works. He capitulated without giving a mating solution. Therefore, if I show any mate I win.
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Post Reply