longest 6-man EGTB win

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Jouni
Posts: 2121
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:15 pm

Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Jouni » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:12 pm

But ICCF don't have 50 move rule at all!?

9.3.1 he declares to the tournament director (or the server) his intention to make this move which will result in the last 50 moves by each player having been made without the movement of any pawn and without any capture (except if there are 7 or fewer pieces remaining on the board)
Jouni

duncan
Posts: 11323
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by duncan » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:30 pm

Paloma wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:09 pm
duncan wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:44 am
I tried to look for the 10 longest DTM in descending order. The longest I could find was mate in 125. Does this look at all accurate to you. ?
Mate in 125 ? It is a mate in 68 !!

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "?"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/1q6/8/4Q3/8/8/B4n2/NK1k4 w - - 0 1"]
[Move_number "0"]
[Is_demo_mode "false"]

1. Bb3+ Kd2 2. Qb2+ Ke3 3. Nc2+ Kf4 4. Qf6+ Kg3 5. Nd4 Ng4 6. Qf5 Qh1+ 7. Kb2 Qh2+ 8. Ka3 Qd2 9. Qf3+ Kh4 10. Qh1+ Kg3 11. Qg1+ Kh3 12. Be6 Qc3+ 13. Ka4 Qf3 14. Qe1 Qf4 15. Qb4 Kh4 16. Ka5 Ne5 17. Ka6 Kg5 18. Qc5 Qe4 19. Bf5 Qa8+ 20. Kb5 Qb8+ 21. Ka4 Kf6 22. Be4 Kf7 23. Nf5 Qe8+ 24. Kb3 Kf6 25. Nd4 Qg8+ 26. Ka3 Qd8 27. Ka2 Qb8 28. Ka1 Qd8 29. Kb1 Qe7 30. Qb6+ Kg5 31. Ne6+ Kf6 32. Bd5 Qh7+ 33. Kb2 Qh2+ 34. Kb3 Qg3+ 35. Ka4 Nf7 36. Nd8+ Nd6 37. Nf7 Qg4+ 38. Ka3 Qd7 39. Kb4 Ke7 40. Qc5 Qb5+ 41. Qxb5 Nxb5 42. Kxb5 Kf6 43. Kc5 Kg6 44. Nd6 Kf6 45. Kd4 Kg6 46. Ke5 Kg7 47. Be4 Kg8 48. Kf6 Kf8 49. Nf7 Kg8 50. Bd3 Kf8 51. Bh7 Ke8 52. Ne5 Kd8 53. Be4 Ke8 54. Bd5 Kf8 55. Nd7+ Ke8 56. Ke6 Kd8 57. Kd6 Ke8 58. Bc4 Kd8 59. Bf7 Kc8 60. Nc5 Kd8 61. Nb7+ Kc8 62. Kc6 Kb8 63. Nd6 Ka8 64. Bc4 Kb8 65. Kb6 Ka8 66. Kc7 Ka7 67. Nc8+ Ka8 68. Bd5# 1-0
I was referring to this mate.

[Event "KQBNvKQN"]
[Site ""]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Syzygy"]
[Black "Syzygy"]
[Result "1-0"]
[FEN "8/1q6/8/4Q3/8/8/B4n2/NK1k4 w - - 0 1"]
[Annotator "shakmaty-syzygy"]
[WDL "Win"]
[DTZ "100"]
[WinningMoves "Bb3+"]
[DrawingMoves "Nb3, Qb2"]
[LosingMoves "Qb5"]

{ KQBNvKQN with DTZ 100 } 1. Bb3+ Kd2 2. Qb2+ Ke3 3. Nc2+ Kf4 4. Qf6+ Kg3 5. Nd4 Ng4 6. Qf5 Qh1+ 7. Kb2 Qg2+ 8. Ka3 Qb7 9. Qd3+ Kh4 10. Qd2 Qe7+ 11. Kb2 Kh5 12. Qc3 Ne3 13. Qd3 Qe5 14. Kb1 Kg4 15. Ba4 Kf4 16. Bc6 Qe7 17. Qd2 Kg3 18. Qe1+ Kg4 19. Qg1+ Kh5 20. Bf3+ Kh6 21. Qh2+ Kg7 22. Qb8 Kg6 23. Qg3+ Kf7 24. Qf4+ Kg8 25. Nb3 Qe6 26. Qb8+ Kf7 27. Qc7+ Kg8 28. Nc5 Qf5+ 29. Be4 Qf1+ 30. Kb2 Qf6+ 31. Ka3 Qa1+ 32. Kb4 Qb1+ 33. Ka4 Qa1+ 34. Kb5 Qb2+ 35. Ka6 Qa1+ 36. Kb7 Qb2+ 37. Kc8 Qg7 38. Nd7 Ng4 39. Bd3 Kh8 40. Qf4 Qg8+ 41. Kc7 Qg7 42. Bb1 Nh6 43. Qh4 Qc3+ 44. Kd6 Qd2+ 45. Ke7 Qe3+ 46. Kf6 Kg8 47. Ba2+ Kh7 48. Nf8+ Kh8 49. Kg6 Qb6+ 50. Qf6+ Qxf6+ { KBNvKQN with DTZ 1 } 51. Kxf6 { KBNvKN with DTZ -92 } 51... Ng4+ 52. Kg6 Nf6 53. Ne6 Nd7 54. Kh6 Ne5 55. Nc5 Nd3 56. Nb7 Ne5 57. Bd5 Nd3 58. Nd6 Nf2 59. Kg6 Ng4 60. Be6 Nf2 61. Bf5 Nd1 62. Kf7 Ne3 63. Bd3 Ng4 64. Be4 Nf2 65. Bf3 Nd3 66. Nc4 Ne1 67. Be4 Nd3 68. Kf6 Nc5 69. Bc2 Nd7+ 70. Ke7 Nf8 71. Nd6 Nh7 72. Kf7 Ng5+ 73. Kf6 Nh7+ 74. Kg6 Nf8+ 75. Kf7 Nd7 76. Bf5 Ne5+ 77. Kf6 Nf3 78. Be4 Nd2 79. Bd3 Kg8 80. Nf5 Kf8 81. Ng7 Nb3 82. Ne6+ Kg8 83. Bc4 Nd2 84. Bd5 Nf1 85. Nd4+ Kh7 86. Kg5 Nd2 87. Ne2 Kg7 88. Kf4 Nb1 89. Bc4 Na3 90. Bd3 Kf6 91. Nd4 Ke7 92. Ke5 Kd7 93. Kd5 Ke7 94. Ne2 Kf6 95. Kc5 Ke5 96. Kb4 Nb1 97. Bxb1 { KBNvK with DTZ -55 } 97... Kd5 98. Nc3+ Kd4 99. Be4 Ke5 100. Kc5 Ke6 101. Nd5 Ke5 102. Bg6 Ke6 103. Kd4 Kd7 104. Bf7 Kd6 105. Bg8 Kc6 106. Nf4 Kb6 107. Bb3 Kb5 108. Bd5 Ka4 109. Kc3 Ka3 110. Ne2 Ka4 111. Nd4 Ka3 112. Nc2+ Ka4 113. Bc6+ Ka5 114. Kc4 Kb6 115. Nd4 Ka6 116. Kc5 Ka5 117. Nb3+ Ka6 118. Bg2 Ka7 119. Kc6 Ka6 120. Bh3 Ka7 121. Nc5 Kb8 122. Kb6 Ka8 123. Bg4 Kb8 124. Na6+ Ka8 125. Bf3# { Checkmate } 1-0

Spliffjiffer
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Spliffjiffer » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:07 pm

i tried to respond at the same time as Jouni did and my respond was undergoing...i did realize his comment and thought everything was clear after that so i didnt mind...if thats correct what you are claiming then one thing is absolutley clear: in the DTZ50 tablebases u found an exception ,which MUST be there, that is so drastic i have never seen (oc this might be possible, no dought)..can you prove that though ??
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

Paloma
Posts: 926
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Paloma » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:01 pm

@ duncan

I know, but this matt in 125 is wrong!
Is according to Lomonosov matt in 68 as i wrote !!

duncan
Posts: 11323
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by duncan » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:45 am

Paloma wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:01 pm
@ duncan

I know, but this matt in 125 is wrong!
Is according to Lomonosov matt in 68 as i wrote !!

So longest mate is only 114.






How do you know that lomonosov is not making sub optimal moves for black to get such a fast win?

eg.

34. Kb3 Qg3+, loss with dtz 27, syzygy prefers qh3+ for black which is a loss with dtz30


35. Ka4 Nf7 loss with dtz 13. syzygy says qg4+ for black which is loss with dtz30



Spliffjiffer
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Spliffjiffer » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:10 am

maybe the simplest way to get an idea wether Lomonosov TB's are right is to play the first 50 moves vs DTZ50 TB's and if its not a draw after that then Lomonosov TB's might be right here (oc this will be no proof but an indication at least)
...or do i get the whole thing wrong and you guys dont care about the 50move-rule at all ?...sry then
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

duncan
Posts: 11323
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by duncan » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:22 am

Spliffjiffer wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:10 am
maybe the simplest way to get an idea wether Lomonosov TB's are right is to play the first 50 moves vs DTZ50 TB's and if its not a draw after that then Lomonosov TB's might be right here (oc this will be no proof but an indication at least)
...or do i get the whole thing wrong and you guys dont care about the 50move-rule at all ?...sry then
Or one could play Syzygy moves against Lomonsov.

Spliffjiffer
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Spliffjiffer » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:34 am

yes exactely (because syzygy are DTZ50 TB's) :-)
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

Paloma
Posts: 926
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Paloma » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:53 am

34. Kb3 Qg3+ is right (loss in 34), 34...Qh3+ is loss in 29 (35.Kb4 mate in 29)

35. Ka4 Nf7 is right (loss in 33), 35...Qh4+ is loss in 30 (36.Nd4+ mate in 30)

Syzygy does not show the shortest way to mate, just any win

Spliffjiffer
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Spliffjiffer » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:04 pm

well the critical part here is wether black is able to avoid an exchange/mate within the first 50 moves or not...for example in the Lomonosov-line black managed 40 moves to avoid that...if black is able to find a line in which he/it manages to avoid that for 50 moves though then its just a draw, even if u mate in move 51 for example !
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

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