longest 6-man EGTB win

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Dann Corbit
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:53 pm

duncan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:45 am
How do you know that lomonosov is not making sub optimal moves for black to get such a fast win?
Well, we do not know. But it would be improbable that they are wrong because nobody has found an error yet, after years of being available.

The design of the Lomonosov EGTB files is distance to mate. That is why the mates are shorter.

The Syzygy files show a sure win, but not necessarily the shortest. However, they are much smaller in size and therefore much faster.
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Spliffjiffer
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Spliffjiffer » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:36 pm

well as well but id really doubt that there is a mate faster than 125(-5 to -10) that would make sense to me...there are 2 important reasons imo:
1. the line to mate by concidering the 50 move-rule is very much tightened and as far as i observed there are very view possibilities to alter from the lines given by DTZ50-syzygy data
2. all will end up in a queen exchange (probably) and the resulting endgame should not be faster than the originally claimed #125 (-10) imo...totally unclear but i think #68 is far from truth !? atm
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Nordlandia
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Nordlandia » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:59 pm

I also wounder what the status is for possible release of syzygy dtm files. It was announced in late 2017 in tcec chat.

Is syzygy dtm abandoned as a whole?

We deserve an answer.

Paloma
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Paloma » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:05 pm

Jon, you are right.

I asked here too
http://www.talkchess.com/forum3/viewtop ... 09#p817009

Dann Corbit
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Dann Corbit » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:27 pm

Lots of people want to know, but Ronald does not have to make up his mind.
I guess that the big problem is resources to test it.
I suppose it will take more than 2 TB of RAM, because of the complex information in memory.
That is really expensive.
It will also tie up a machine for about a year to build them,
Then there is the disk to store it. Surely, they will be bigger than the Lomonosov tables because they have more information in them,
So how much does 200 TB of disk cost today? Better make it fast disk (e.g. striped SAS) or it will take longer.

On the other hand, if we wait a while, the RAM will become cheaper and faster.
If we wait a while disk will get cheaper and faster.
If we wait a while, the machines will become ludicrously powerful.

Eventually, those very tablebase files will be built.
But I would say we do not have the right to demand an answer
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Nordlandia
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Nordlandia » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:16 pm

Dann Corbit: the idea was to finish 5 and 6 men first. As they are feasible. So much RAM is not required for generating 5 and 6-men in DTM format.

Alternatively 5-men in DTM50 is also nice to have for engine testers.

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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Dann Corbit » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:03 pm

OK, that makes sense. and should be feasible.
Even so, it is his project and he can jump on it or leave it languishing.
It would be nice to get a heads up, one way or the other.
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by duncan » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:31 pm

Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:45 am

Hmmm...

There must be a communications issue.

I'm not asking that the files be changed in anyway. Just for a short, representative list, (1 from each of several EGTB files (e.g. 1 from the KQPkrr file for example) of positions which represent a long mate that respects the 50-move rule.

syzygy lists these.

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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by MikeB » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:44 am

duncan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:31 pm
<snip>
syzygy lists these.
odd, PGN shows black winning, but it was white that checkmated black...
Image

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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by duncan » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:41 am

MikeB wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:44 am
duncan wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:31 pm
<snip>
syzygy lists these.
odd, PGN shows black winning, but it was white that checkmated black...
My mistake I copied and pasted wrongly. Also for the second one when black wins.

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