longest 6-man EGTB win

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Dann Corbit
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Dann Corbit »

duncan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:45 am How do you know that lomonosov is not making sub optimal moves for black to get such a fast win?
Well, we do not know. But it would be improbable that they are wrong because nobody has found an error yet, after years of being available.

The design of the Lomonosov EGTB files is distance to mate. That is why the mates are shorter.

The Syzygy files show a sure win, but not necessarily the shortest. However, they are much smaller in size and therefore much faster.
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Spliffjiffer
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Spliffjiffer »

well as well but id really doubt that there is a mate faster than 125(-5 to -10) that would make sense to me...there are 2 important reasons imo:
1. the line to mate by concidering the 50 move-rule is very much tightened and as far as i observed there are very view possibilities to alter from the lines given by DTZ50-syzygy data
2. all will end up in a queen exchange (probably) and the resulting endgame should not be faster than the originally claimed #125 (-10) imo...totally unclear but i think #68 is far from truth !? atm
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Nordlandia
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Nordlandia »

I also wounder what the status is for possible release of syzygy dtm files. It was announced in late 2017 in tcec chat.

Is syzygy dtm abandoned as a whole?

We deserve an answer.
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Paloma
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Paloma »

Jon, you are right.

I asked here too
http://www.talkchess.com/forum3/viewtop ... 09#p817009
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Dann Corbit
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Dann Corbit »

Lots of people want to know, but Ronald does not have to make up his mind.
I guess that the big problem is resources to test it.
I suppose it will take more than 2 TB of RAM, because of the complex information in memory.
That is really expensive.
It will also tie up a machine for about a year to build them,
Then there is the disk to store it. Surely, they will be bigger than the Lomonosov tables because they have more information in them,
So how much does 200 TB of disk cost today? Better make it fast disk (e.g. striped SAS) or it will take longer.

On the other hand, if we wait a while, the RAM will become cheaper and faster.
If we wait a while disk will get cheaper and faster.
If we wait a while, the machines will become ludicrously powerful.

Eventually, those very tablebase files will be built.
But I would say we do not have the right to demand an answer
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Nordlandia
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Nordlandia »

Dann Corbit: the idea was to finish 5 and 6 men first. As they are feasible. So much RAM is not required for generating 5 and 6-men in DTM format.

Alternatively 5-men in DTM50 is also nice to have for engine testers.
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Dann Corbit
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by Dann Corbit »

OK, that makes sense. and should be feasible.
Even so, it is his project and he can jump on it or leave it languishing.
It would be nice to get a heads up, one way or the other.
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duncan
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by duncan »

Zenmastur wrote: ↑Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:45 am
Hmmm...

There must be a communications issue.

I'm not asking that the files be changed in anyway. Just for a short, representative list, (1 from each of several EGTB files (e.g. 1 from the KQPkrr file for example) of positions which represent a long mate that respects the 50-move rule.

syzygy lists these.
[pgn] [Event "KQPvKRR"] [Site ""] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "-"] [White "Syzygy"] [Black "Syzygy"] [Result "0-1"] [FEN "1r2k3/8/2P5/8/2Q5/5r2/4K3/8 b - - 0 1"] [Annotator "shakmaty-syzygy"] [WDL "Loss"] [DTZ "-100"] [WinningMoves ""] [DrawingMoves ""] [LosingMoves "Rf1, Rf2+, Ra3, Rfb3, Rc3, Rd3, Re3+, Rg3, Rh3, Rf4, Rf5, Rf6, Rf7, Rf8, Rb1, Rb2+, Rbb3, Rb4, Rb5, Rb6, Rb7, Ra8, Rc8, Rd8, Ke7, Kd8, Kf8"] { KQPvKRR with DTZ -100 } 1... Rf7 2. Kd3 Rd8+ 3. Kc3 Rf3+ 4. Kb4 Rb8+ 5. Kc5 Rf5+ 6. Kd6 Rf6+ 7. Kc7 Rb2 8. Qg8+ Ke7 9. Qg7+ Ke6 10. Qd7+ Ke5 11. Qe7+ Kf5 12. Qe3 Rh2 13. Qf3+ Ke6 14. Qe4+ Kf7 15. Kb7 Rb2+ 16. Ka7 Ra2+ 17. Kb6 Ra1 18. Qd5+ Kg7 19. Qd7+ Kg8 20. Qd4 Rb1+ 21. Ka7 Rf7+ 22. Ka6 Rc1 23. Qd8+ Kh7 24. Qd3+ Kg8 25. Kb5 Kg7 26. Qg3+ Kh7 27. Qh4+ Kg6 28. Qe4+ Kg7 29. Qd3 Kg8 30. Qg6+ Rg7 31. Qe6+ Kh7 32. Qh3+ Kg8 33. Qb3+ Kh7 34. Qd3+ Kg8 35. Kb6 Rf7 36. Qb5 Rc3 37. Qd5 Rc2 38. Qg5+ Kh7 39. Qe5 Kh6 40. Qe3+ Kg7 41. Qb3 Rff2 42. Qd3 Kh6 43. Ka5 Ra2+ 44. Kb4 Rfb2+ 45. Kc3 Re2 46. Qd4 Re6 47. Qc4 Re3+ 48. Kb4 Rb2+ 49. Ka4 Rb8 50. Qf4+ Kh5 51. Qxb8 { KQPvKR with DTZ -4 } 51... Re4+ 52. Ka5 Re1 53. c7 { KQPvKR with DTZ -8 } 53... Ra1+ 54. Kb4 Rb1+ 55. Ka3 Ra1+ 56. Kb2 Rb1+ 57. Kxb1 { KQPvK with DTZ -2 } 57... Kg4 58. c8=Q+ { KQQvK with DTZ -4 } 58... Kf3 59. Qc4 Kf2 60. Qg3+ Kxg3 { KQvK with DTZ 11 } 61. Kc1 Kf2 62. Qg4 Ke1 63. Qf4 Ke2 64. Kc2 Ke1 65. Kd3 Kd1 66. Qf1# { Checkmate } 0-1 [Event "KQPvKRR"] [Site ""] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "-"] [White "Syzygy"] [Black "Syzygy"] [Result "1-0"] [FEN "k7/8/8/8/8/3P4/r2r4/5K1Q b - - 0 1"] [Annotator "shakmaty-syzygy"] [WDL "Win"] [DTZ "52"] [WinningMoves "Ka7"] [DrawingMoves "Kb8"] [LosingMoves "Rg2"] { KQPvKRR with DTZ 52 } 1... Ka7 2. Qg1+ Ka6 3. Qg6+ Ka5 4. Qf5+ Kb4 5. Ke1 Rdc2 6. Qf8+ Kb3 7. Qb8+ Ka3 8. Kd1 Rd2+ 9. Ke1 Re2+ 10. Kf1 Rf2+ 11. Ke1 Rae2+ 12. Kd1 Rd2+ 13. Ke1 Rfe2+ 14. Kf1 Rh2 15. Qa8+ Kb2 16. Kg1 Rhe2 17. Kf1 Rc2 18. Qa4 Rh2 19. Qb4+ Ka1 20. Qe1+ Ka2 21. Qe6+ Kb2 22. Qe5+ Kb1 23. Kg1 Rhd2 24. Qb5+ Rb2 25. Qa4 Rdc2 26. Qe4 Rc1+ 27. Qe1 Rxe1# { Checkmate } 1-0 [/pgn]
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MikeB
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by MikeB »

duncan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:31 pm <snip>
syzygy lists these.
[pgn] [Event "KQPvKRR"] [Site ""] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "-"] [White "Syzygy"] [Black "Syzygy"] [Result "0-1"] [FEN "1r2k3/8/2P5/8/2Q5/5r2/4K3/8 b - - 0 1"] [Annotator "shakmaty-syzygy"] [WDL "Loss"] [DTZ "-100"] [WinningMoves ""] [DrawingMoves ""] [LosingMoves "Rf1, Rf2+, Ra3, Rfb3, Rc3, Rd3, Re3+, Rg3, Rh3, Rf4, Rf5, Rf6, Rf7, Rf8, Rb1, Rb2+, Rbb3, Rb4, Rb5, Rb6, Rb7, Ra8, Rc8, Rd8, Ke7, Kd8, Kf8"] { KQPvKRR with DTZ -100 } 1... Rf7 2. Kd3 Rd8+ 3. Kc3 Rf3+ 4. Kb4 Rb8+ 5. Kc5 Rf5+ 6. Kd6 Rf6+ 7. Kc7 Rb2 8. Qg8+ Ke7 9. Qg7+ Ke6 10. Qd7+ Ke5 11. Qe7+ Kf5 12. Qe3 Rh2 13. Qf3+ Ke6 14. Qe4+ Kf7 15. Kb7 Rb2+ 16. Ka7 Ra2+ 17. Kb6 Ra1 18. Qd5+ Kg7 19. Qd7+ Kg8 20. Qd4 Rb1+ 21. Ka7 Rf7+ 22. Ka6 Rc1 23. Qd8+ Kh7 24. Qd3+ Kg8 25. Kb5 Kg7 26. Qg3+ Kh7 27. Qh4+ Kg6 28. Qe4+ Kg7 29. Qd3 Kg8 30. Qg6+ Rg7 31. Qe6+ Kh7 32. Qh3+ Kg8 33. Qb3+ Kh7 34. Qd3+ Kg8 35. Kb6 Rf7 36. Qb5 Rc3 37. Qd5 Rc2 38. Qg5+ Kh7 39. Qe5 Kh6 40. Qe3+ Kg7 41. Qb3 Rff2 42. Qd3 Kh6 43. Ka5 Ra2+ 44. Kb4 Rfb2+ 45. Kc3 Re2 46. Qd4 Re6 47. Qc4 Re3+ 48. Kb4 Rb2+ 49. Ka4 Rb8 50. Qf4+ Kh5 51. Qxb8 { KQPvKR with DTZ -4 } 51... Re4+ 52. Ka5 Re1 53. c7 { KQPvKR with DTZ -8 } 53... Ra1+ 54. Kb4 Rb1+ 55. Ka3 Ra1+ 56. Kb2 Rb1+ 57. Kxb1 { KQPvK with DTZ -2 } 57... Kg4 58. c8=Q+ { KQQvK with DTZ -4 } 58... Kf3 59. Qc4 Kf2 60. Qg3+ Kxg3 { KQvK with DTZ 11 } 61. Kc1 Kf2 62. Qg4 Ke1 63. Qf4 Ke2 64. Kc2 Ke1 65. Kd3 Kd1 66. Qf1# { Checkmate } 0-1 <snip>[/pgn]
odd, PGN shows black winning, but it was white that checkmated black...
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duncan
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Re: longest 6-man EGTB win

Post by duncan »

MikeB wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:44 am
duncan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:31 pm <snip>
syzygy lists these.
[pgn] [Event "KQPvKRR"] [Site ""] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "-"] [White "Syzygy"] [Black "Syzygy"] [Result "0-1"] [FEN "1r2k3/8/2P5/8/2Q5/5r2/4K3/8 b - - 0 1"] [Annotator "shakmaty-syzygy"] [WDL "Loss"] [DTZ "-100"] [WinningMoves ""] [DrawingMoves ""] [LosingMoves "Rf1, Rf2+, Ra3, Rfb3, Rc3, Rd3, Re3+, Rg3, Rh3, Rf4, Rf5, Rf6, Rf7, Rf8, Rb1, Rb2+, Rbb3, Rb4, Rb5, Rb6, Rb7, Ra8, Rc8, Rd8, Ke7, Kd8, Kf8"] { KQPvKRR with DTZ -100 } 1... Rf7 2. Kd3 Rd8+ 3. Kc3 Rf3+ 4. Kb4 Rb8+ 5. Kc5 Rf5+ 6. Kd6 Rf6+ 7. Kc7 Rb2 8. Qg8+ Ke7 9. Qg7+ Ke6 10. Qd7+ Ke5 11. Qe7+ Kf5 12. Qe3 Rh2 13. Qf3+ Ke6 14. Qe4+ Kf7 15. Kb7 Rb2+ 16. Ka7 Ra2+ 17. Kb6 Ra1 18. Qd5+ Kg7 19. Qd7+ Kg8 20. Qd4 Rb1+ 21. Ka7 Rf7+ 22. Ka6 Rc1 23. Qd8+ Kh7 24. Qd3+ Kg8 25. Kb5 Kg7 26. Qg3+ Kh7 27. Qh4+ Kg6 28. Qe4+ Kg7 29. Qd3 Kg8 30. Qg6+ Rg7 31. Qe6+ Kh7 32. Qh3+ Kg8 33. Qb3+ Kh7 34. Qd3+ Kg8 35. Kb6 Rf7 36. Qb5 Rc3 37. Qd5 Rc2 38. Qg5+ Kh7 39. Qe5 Kh6 40. Qe3+ Kg7 41. Qb3 Rff2 42. Qd3 Kh6 43. Ka5 Ra2+ 44. Kb4 Rfb2+ 45. Kc3 Re2 46. Qd4 Re6 47. Qc4 Re3+ 48. Kb4 Rb2+ 49. Ka4 Rb8 50. Qf4+ Kh5 51. Qxb8 { KQPvKR with DTZ -4 } 51... Re4+ 52. Ka5 Re1 53. c7 { KQPvKR with DTZ -8 } 53... Ra1+ 54. Kb4 Rb1+ 55. Ka3 Ra1+ 56. Kb2 Rb1+ 57. Kxb1 { KQPvK with DTZ -2 } 57... Kg4 58. c8=Q+ { KQQvK with DTZ -4 } 58... Kf3 59. Qc4 Kf2 60. Qg3+ Kxg3 { KQvK with DTZ 11 } 61. Kc1 Kf2 62. Qg4 Ke1 63. Qf4 Ke2 64. Kc2 Ke1 65. Kd3 Kd1 66. Qf1# { Checkmate } 0-1 <snip>[/pgn]
odd, PGN shows black winning, but it was white that checkmated black...
My mistake I copied and pasted wrongly. Also for the second one when black wins.
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