World Fischer Random Championship

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: bob, hgm, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
lkaufman
Posts: 3724
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

World Fischer Random Championship

Post by lkaufman » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:46 am

So far, there have been eight games played in the semi-finals of the World Fischer Random (chess 960) Championship, all at the game in one hour time limit, on the dividing line between standard and rapid chess. Five of them have been decisive, and in each of the three draws one or both players missed wins (scores of 1.5 pawns plus or more) according to latest Stockfish. Also it should be noted that the Universal Rating System is rating Fischer Random games as long as they are over-the-board, not by internet, along with the normal games. It seems to me that Fischer Random is working out better than I expected; I thought it would solve only the preparation problem in chess, but it seems to be doing wonders for the draw rate as well, as has already been shown in computer chess in the CCRL testing. Moreover, the Universal Rating System, although not so well known yet, is probably the single most accurate measure of all-around human playing strength in chess, and now that FRC games are rated by it the objection that they don't count for rating is no longer valid. Looks like Fischer was right on increment, and also on FRC.
Komodo rules!

jp
Posts: 825
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: World Fischer Random Championship

Post by jp » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:21 am

lkaufman wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:46 am
It seems to me that Fischer Random is working out better than I expected; I thought it would solve only the preparation problem in chess, but it seems to be doing wonders for the draw rate as well, as has already been shown in computer chess in the CCRL testing.
Another bonus, Larry: Black is doing great, even when Stockfish claims the starting position is very favorable for White. We'll have to see if that and the high win rate remain the case when there's greater familiarity with FRC.

User avatar
Ovyron
Posts: 2746
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:30 am

Re: World Fischer Random Championship

Post by Ovyron » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:10 am

I don't find Chess in the title, so it seems people have made the right decision to stop pretending this is chess :mrgreen:

I wonder if in the future people will just call this game "Fischer", since there's no non-random Fischer.

Chessqueen
Posts: 624
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: World Fischer Random Championship

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:43 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:10 am
I don't find Chess in the title, so it seems people have made the right decision to stop pretending this is chess :mrgreen:

I wonder if in the future people will just call this game "Fischer", since there's no non-random Fischer.
The Normal or standard chess as we know it, is only one of the 960 Chess positions of the Fischer Random Chess, which means that there are 959 other positions that will require at least 1000 of years before we master most of those unknown positions. :mrgreen: :lol: :shock:

User avatar
Ovyron
Posts: 2746
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:30 am

Re: World Fischer Random Championship

Post by Ovyron » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:46 pm

So, if after rolling one of the 960 positions you get the opening one from chess, do people just sit and play a normal game?

If not, perhaps the best name for the game would be Fischer 959 :mrgreen:

Chessqueen
Posts: 624
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: World Fischer Random Championship

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:43 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:46 am
So far, there have been eight games played in the semi-finals of the World Fischer Random (chess 960) Championship, all at the game in one hour time limit, on the dividing line between standard and rapid chess. Five of them have been decisive, and in each of the three draws one or both players missed wins (scores of 1.5 pawns plus or more) according to latest Stockfish. Also it should be noted that the Universal Rating System is rating Fischer Random games as long as they are over-the-board, not by internet, along with the normal games. It seems to me that Fischer Random is working out better than I expected; I thought it would solve only the preparation problem in chess, but it seems to be doing wonders for the draw rate as well, as has already been shown in computer chess in the CCRL testing. Moreover, the Universal Rating System, although not so well known yet, is probably the single most accurate measure of all-around human playing strength in chess, and now that FRC games are rated by it the objection that they don't count for rating is no longer valid. Looks like Fischer was right on increment, and also on FRC.

Larry it is very interesting what you just pointed out and based on these finding by games played at the CCRL 40/4 FRC engines competition that has run more than 250,000 games running night and day come up with these stats:

Chess960 FRC based off 250,000 or so games: White wins: 80'914 (41.6%) Black wins: 70'840 (36.5%) Draws: 42'546 (21.9%) White score: 52.6% http://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/40 ... t_all.html

Standard chess based off 1.4 million games: White wins: 547'582 (39.2%) Black wins: 447'252 (32.0%) Draws: 403'047 (28.8%) White score: 53.6%

As you can see, there are significantly fewer draws among the engines and slightly more black wins. These days, the top engines are playing the Chess960 opening fairly well so the stats aren't completely useless. As for top quality human games, there are less than 3000 on the records which is way too small a sample.

A rudimentary case study was carried out to find out if there were any really unfair start positions in Chess960, but none were found. Each of the 960 starts offers players something reasonable. Here is where it was done: http://chess960jungle.blogspot.com.au/s ... 20analysis
Last edited by Chessqueen on Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

lkaufman
Posts: 3724
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: World Fischer Random Championship

Post by lkaufman » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:48 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:46 pm
So, if after rolling one of the 960 positions you get the opening one from chess, do people just sit and play a normal game?

If not, perhaps the best name for the game would be Fischer 959 :mrgreen:
Yes, the rules say that you just play normal chess in that case, although I think that some frc events have added the rule to disallow normal chess, so they are playing chess 959, not 960.
Komodo rules!

Leo
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:55 pm
Location: USA/Minnesota
Full name: Leo

Re: World Fischer Random Championship

Post by Leo » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:50 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:46 am
So far, there have been eight games played in the semi-finals of the World Fischer Random (chess 960) Championship, all at the game in one hour time limit, on the dividing line between standard and rapid chess. Five of them have been decisive, and in each of the three draws one or both players missed wins (scores of 1.5 pawns plus or more) according to latest Stockfish. Also it should be noted that the Universal Rating System is rating Fischer Random games as long as they are over-the-board, not by internet, along with the normal games. It seems to me that Fischer Random is working out better than I expected; I thought it would solve only the preparation problem in chess, but it seems to be doing wonders for the draw rate as well, as has already been shown in computer chess in the CCRL testing. Moreover, the Universal Rating System, although not so well known yet, is probably the single most accurate measure of all-around human playing strength in chess, and now that FRC games are rated by it the objection that they don't count for rating is no longer valid. Looks like Fischer was right on increment, and also on FRC.
Very interesting. Let us know who wins the tournament.
Advanced Micro Devices fan.

lkaufman
Posts: 3724
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: World Fischer Random Championship

Post by lkaufman » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:55 pm

Leo wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:50 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:46 am
So far, there have been eight games played in the semi-finals of the World Fischer Random (chess 960) Championship, all at the game in one hour time limit, on the dividing line between standard and rapid chess. Five of them have been decisive, and in each of the three draws one or both players missed wins (scores of 1.5 pawns plus or more) according to latest Stockfish. Also it should be noted that the Universal Rating System is rating Fischer Random games as long as they are over-the-board, not by internet, along with the normal games. It seems to me that Fischer Random is working out better than I expected; I thought it would solve only the preparation problem in chess, but it seems to be doing wonders for the draw rate as well, as has already been shown in computer chess in the CCRL testing. Moreover, the Universal Rating System, although not so well known yet, is probably the single most accurate measure of all-around human playing strength in chess, and now that FRC games are rated by it the objection that they don't count for rating is no longer valid. Looks like Fischer was right on increment, and also on FRC.
Very interesting. Let us know who wins the tournament.
The final match starts Thursday, it will be between Magnus Carlsen and Wesley So.
Komodo rules!

Chessqueen
Posts: 624
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: World Fischer Random Championship

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:42 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:55 pm
Leo wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:50 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:46 am
So far, there have been eight games played in the semi-finals of the World Fischer Random (chess 960) Championship, all at the game in one hour time limit, on the dividing line between standard and rapid chess. Five of them have been decisive, and in each of the three draws one or both players missed wins (scores of 1.5 pawns plus or more) according to latest Stockfish. Also it should be noted that the Universal Rating System is rating Fischer Random games as long as they are over-the-board, not by internet, along with the normal games. It seems to me that Fischer Random is working out better than I expected; I thought it would solve only the preparation problem in chess, but it seems to be doing wonders for the draw rate as well, as has already been shown in computer chess in the CCRL testing. Moreover, the Universal Rating System, although not so well known yet, is probably the single most accurate measure of all-around human playing strength in chess, and now that FRC games are rated by it the objection that they don't count for rating is no longer valid. Looks like Fischer was right on increment, and also on FRC.
Very interesting. Let us know who wins the tournament.
The final match starts Thursday, it will be between Magnus Carlsen and Wesley So.
You can watch it here https://www.frchess.com/
or in www.chess.com

I believe that when you take away the opening preparation GM with great tactical skills like GM SO becomes very dangerous see what he did to GM Nepomniachtchi More information on Chessbase https://en.chessbase.com/post/fischer-r ... 2019-semis

Post Reply