Tactics cannot be very important for chess

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towforce
Posts: 9334
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:57 pm
Location: Birmingham UK

Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess

Post by towforce » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:52 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:01 pm
Because some positions require tactics, and others require strategy, perhaps something like Ferdy's Aiquiri could have the solution, by having a strategical engine and a tactical engine suggest a move, and have a third judge engine that knows what the position needs pick one of the moves.

It looks to me as if you're heading in a direction I suggested over 20 years ago, based on the AI concept called Case Based Reasoning. My suggestion was to have multiple evaluation functions and to select which one to use based on a table containing positions and a matching evaluation function index. Find the closest position to the current one in the table, and use the matching eval function to evaluate the position.

A system almost guaranteed to just keep on getting better and better imo!
Love of truth is the best defence against ideological possession.

Dann Corbit
Posts: 10189
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess

Post by Dann Corbit » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:13 pm

Progress with x256 net (doing better than the x128 net):

Code: Select all

Analysis of G:\chess\epd\ACT2.epd   
Analyzing engine: Lc0
10/29/2019 9:25:14 AM Level: 720 Seconds
   Source                    : List of EPD/PGN files
      G:\chess\epd\ACT2.epd
      G:\chess\epd\ACT1-B.epd
   Colours                   : White moves=True, Black moves=True
   Direction                 : forward
   Games (PGN)               : From 1 to 999999
   Moves                     : From 1 to 250
   Positions (EPD)           : From 1 to 999999 
   Use Engine(s)             : List
      Lc0
   Use seconds per move      : 720 Seconds per move
   Analysis Lines            : Minimum search depth=2
   Activate abort analysis   : False
  1) Nd5-b4             a3-a4    
  2) Ba8-h1             Ba8-h1  * 10 Seconds
  3) e6xd7              Bf1-a6   
  4) Rg1-h1             Rg1-h1  * 7 Seconds
  5) Nb7-d8             Nb7-d8  * 2 Seconds
  6) Qc8-c3             Be6xd5   
  7) Rf5-f8             g6xh7    
  8) Bb8xd6             Bb8xd6  * 166 Seconds
  9) b2-b3              Nd5-f6   
 10) b6-b7              b6-b7   * 4 Seconds
 11) Be2-c4             Be2-h5   
 12) Bc3-d2             Bc3-d2  * 4 Seconds
 13) Kg7-h8             Ba7-d4   
 14) Ke6-f5             Ke6-f5  * 0 Seconds
 15) b4-b5              b4-b5   * 1 Second
 16) Rc2-c5             Qh8-h7   
 17) Kb3-c3             Nd8-c6   
 18) Bf6-g7             Kh3-h4   
 19) Qc1-a3             Qc1xc2   
 20) Ne5-c4             Ne5-f7   
 21) Rh4-a4             Rh4-a4  * 0 Seconds
 22) Nb3-c1             Nf1-e3   
 23) Be5-b8             Be5-d4   
 24) .. Qd1-e1          Qd1-e1  * 6 Seconds
 25) Rb1-a1             Rb1-d1   
 26) Ne1-g2             Ne1xd3   
 27) Qa1-f6             Nc1-b3   
 28) f3-f4              Ng7-e6   
 29) Nh4-g6             Nh4-g6  * 65 Seconds
 30) Nd3-c5             Nd3-c5  * 46 Seconds
 31) Bb4xa5             Bb4-e1   
 32) d2-d3              g7-g8B   
 33) Rc1-c7             Rc1-c7  * 25 Seconds
 34) Bb1-a2             Nf5-d4   
 35) Be3xd2             Kh4-g5   
 36) g7xh8N             g7xh8N  * 252 Seconds
 37) Nd8-e6             Kd6-d5   
 38) Rg7-h7             Rg7-g3   
 39) Bb7-c6, c3-c4      Bb7-c6  * 2 Seconds
 40) f5xg6              f5xg6   * 16 Seconds
 41) e7-e8Q, e7-e8R     e7-e8Q  * 30 Seconds
 42) Qb6-d4             Qb6-e3   
 43) Ng8-h6             Ng8-h6  * 58 Seconds
 44) a5xb6              a5xb6   * 0 Seconds
 45) Re3-c3             Nh4-f5   
 46) Ne7-d5             Re8-f8   
 47) Rf6-h6             Rf6-f7   
 48) Qa2-f7             Qa2-e6   
 49) Be4-d5             Qe3xg5   
 50) Bg1-a7             Bg1-a7  * 2 Seconds
 51) Bg6-f5             Bg6-f5  * 494 Seconds
 52) Rf7-h7             Rf7-h7  * 5 Seconds
 53) Bd4xg7             Bd4xg7  * 6 Seconds
 54) Bb4-d6             Bb4-c5   
 55) Ne6-c7             Rh7-h8   
 56) Rh2-h1             h3-h4    
 57) Re3-e1             Re3-e5   
 58) f4-f5              Qa5-c5   
 59) Bg7xe5             Qh1-c6   
 60) Bh7-b1             a4-a5    
 61) Bg4-f5             Bg4-e2   
 62) Rh3-h2             Ba8xb7   
 63) Rh3xh6             Rh3xh6  * 1 Second
 64) Rg2-a2             Rg2-a2  * 31 Seconds
 65) Nh8-f7             Nh8-f7  * 21 Seconds
 66) .. h6-h5           Ne3-c4   
 67) c5-c6              c5-c6   * 0 Seconds
 68) Ba7-b6             Nc7xa8   
 69) Rc8-a8             Rc8-a8  * 1 Second
 70) Nc8-e7             Nc8-e7  * 80 Seconds
 71) Ka2-a3             Ka2-a3  * 0 Seconds
 72) a2-a3              a2-a3   * 148 Seconds
 73) Nd6-b5             Nb6xc8   
 74) Kd5-e6             Qd4-f2   
 75) Ra6-a7             Ra6-a7  * 685 Seconds
 76) Ne2-c1             b6-b7    
 77) Re8-a8             b3-b4    
 78) Bd2-e3             b3-b4    
 79) Bd4-h8             Bd4-g7   
 80) Ke1-d2             Qe6-c6   
 81) a7-a8N             a7-a8Q   
 82) Be3-d4             Be3-d4  * 104 Seconds
 83) Nb7-d6             Nb7-d6  * 12 Seconds
 84) Ne5-g4             Ne5xf7   
 85) Ne4-d6             Ne8-d6   
 86) Qg6-c6             Qg6-c6  * 33 Seconds
 87) Re1-d1             Bg8xd5   
 88) Bh4-f6             Bh4-g3   
 89) b2-b3              b2-b3   * 52 Seconds
 90) Nc7-a8             Nc7-a8  * 0 Seconds
 91) Kf8-g7             Kf8-g7  * 63 Seconds
 92) Nf2-g4             Nf2-g4  * 73 Seconds
 93) Ne7-g6             Kc8-b7   
 94) Kf4-e4             Kf4-e4  * 490 Seconds
 95) c2-c3              Nh5-f6   
 96) Ng3-e4             Ng3-e4  * 63 Seconds
 97) a3-a4              a3-a4   * 0 Seconds
 98) Bg5-f6             Bg5-f6  * 0 Seconds
 99) Qf2-f7             Ne4-g5   
100) Bg4-e6             Bg4-e6  * 575 Seconds
44 of 100 matching moves
10/30/2019 5:26:45 AM, Total time: 8:01:31 PM Rated time: 12:12:33 = 43953 Seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analysis of G:\chess\epd\ACT1-B.epd   
Analyzing engine: Lc0
10/30/2019 5:27:01 AM Level: 720 Seconds
   Source                    : List of EPD/PGN files
      G:\chess\epd\ACT2.epd
      G:\chess\epd\ACT1-B.epd
   Colours                   : White moves=True, Black moves=True
   Direction                 : forward
   Games (PGN)               : From 1 to 999999
   Moves                     : From 1 to 250
   Positions (EPD)           : From 1 to 999999 
   Use Engine(s)             : List
      Lc0
   Use seconds per move      : 720 Seconds per move
   Analysis Lines            : Minimum search depth=2
   Activate abort analysis   : False
  1) Nc1-b3             Nc1-b3  * 10 Seconds
  2) Ra3-a8             Bb8xc7   
  3) Ne4-c5             Ne4-g5   
  4) Kd3-c4             Kd3-e3   
  5) Nd2-f3             Nd2-f3  * 56 Seconds
  6) Kd3-e2             Kd3-e2  * 0 Seconds
  7) a5-a6              Ra8xb8   
  8) Nd5-f4             Nd5-e7   
  9) Rb7-a7             Rb7-a7  * 0 Seconds
 10) b5-b6              b5xa6    
 11) g7xf8N             g7xf8N  * 0 Seconds
 12) Ra4-a8             Ra4-a8  * 134 Seconds
 13) b5xc6              b5xc6   * 1 Second
 14) h5-h6              h5-h6   * 5 Seconds
 15) b5-b6              b5-b6   * 15 Seconds
 16) Bg1-d4             Qg5xf6   
 17) Nb4-c2             Qe2-e5   
 18) Bd1-f3             Bd1xa4   
 19) Qg8-d8             Qg8-d8  * 59 Seconds
 20) Ng6-h8             Ng6-h8  * 0 Seconds
 21) Rd6-d8             Rd6-d8  * 75 Seconds
 22) g7-g8Q             g7-g8Q  * 670 Seconds
 23) Qb7-a6             Qb7-a6  * 2 Seconds
 24) Rb1-b8             Rb1-b8  * 95 Seconds
 25) a7-a8N             a7-a8Q   
 26) Nb4-a6             Nb4-d5   
 27) Bd6-c5             Bd6-c5  * 0 Seconds
 28) Kb8-c8             Kb8-c8  * 272 Seconds
 29) Nd3-b4             Nd3-b4  * 5 Seconds
 30) Qe3-g1             Bg2-e4   
 31) Rg6-a6             Rg6-a6  * 21 Seconds
 32) Nc3-d5             Nc3-d5  * 0 Seconds
 33) Nc1-b3             Nc1-e2   
 34) Bb2-d4             Rh5xd5   
 35) Rg7-g6             Qb3xc3   
 36) Bd7-e8             Bd7-e8  * 2 Seconds
 37) Qh3-g4             Qh3-g4  * 169 Seconds
 38) f5-f6              Ke4-f4   
 39) b2-b4              b2-b4   * 6 Seconds
 40) Kh2-g2             Kh2-g2  * 78 Seconds
 41) Qb5-b2, Qb5-g5     Qb5-g5  * 45 Seconds
 42) Ke5-e4             Ke5-e4  * 0 Seconds
 43) Bc7-d8             Bc7-d8  * 0 Seconds
 44) Nc4-e5             Nc4xb6   
 45) a3-a4              a3-a4   * 123 Seconds
 46) a5-a6              Ba3-e7   
 47) Na7-c8             Na7-c8  * 5 Seconds
 48) Qf2-a2             Qf2-c2   
 49) Qb8-e5             Qb8xb6   
 50) Nf4-e6             Nf4-e6  * 5 Seconds
 51) Bc8-a6             Ng4xe3   
 52) Kb5xb6             h5-h6    
 53) Qh2-h6             Qh2-h6  * 16 Seconds
 54) Ke4-d4             Ke4-d4  * 149 Seconds
 55) c2-c3              c2-c3   * 255 Seconds
 56) a6-a7              a6-a7   * 112 Seconds
 57) Bc1-b2             Bc1-b2  * 12 Seconds
 58) Nh7-f6             Nh7-g5   
 59) f6-f7              Bc7xd8   
 60) a7-a8Q             a7-a8Q  * 3 Seconds
 61) Ng4-f6             Ng4-f6  * 9 Seconds
 62) Nb6-d7             Nb6-d7  * 3 Seconds
 63) h5-h6              h5-h6   * 0 Seconds
 64) Ne4-f2             Ne4xc5   
 65) Nc8-d6             Ba3-b2   
 66) Nc4-d6             Nc4-d6  * 1 Second
 67) Rg8-h8             g3-g4    
 68) Ra2-g2             Ra2-g2  * 58 Seconds
 69) Bf5-d3             Rh2-h6   
 70) f2-f4              Rg2-g1   
 71) Rf5-h5             Nh2-g4   
 72) Nf3-g5             Nf3-g5  * 9 Seconds
 73) Ng8-e7             Ng8-f6   
 74) c5-c6              c5-c6   * 0 Seconds
 75) c6xd7              c6xd7   * 1 Second
 76) e5-e6              e5-e6   * 0 Seconds
 77) c2-c3              c2-c3   * 32 Seconds
 78) Qd2-f2             Qd2-f2  * 0 Seconds
 79) Nb2-d3             Ng1-e2   
 80) h3-h4              h3-h4   * 22 Seconds
 81) Qe4-d4             Kb6-a7   
 82) Rd7-d4             g2-g3    
 83) Rd2-b2             Rd2-b2  * 16 Seconds
 84) Rg8-h8             Bb7-e4   
 85) Nf8-d7             Nf8-d7  * 0 Seconds
 86) Qe3-f4             Qe3-f4  * 3 Seconds
 87) Rf8-f1             Rf8-f6   
 88) Qh5-h6             Qh5-g5   
 89) b2-b4              b2-b4   * 25 Seconds
 90) Qe4-d4             Qe4-e7   
 91) Bg3-f4             Bg3-f4  * 0 Seconds
 92) d5-d6              d5-d6   * 243 Seconds
 93) Qe1-g3             Qe1-g3  * 418 Seconds
 94) Na3-c2             Na3-c2  * 67 Seconds
 95) g5-g6              Nd7xf6   
 96) Bd7-a4             Bd7-a4  * 4 Seconds
 97) Qb1-c1             Qb1-f1   
 98) b7-b8N             b7-b8N  * 1 Second
 99) Rb6-f6             Rb6-g6   
100) Nb4-d5             Kb1xb2   
101) c2-c3              c2-c3   * 6 Seconds
102) Ke1-f1             Ke1-f1  * 0 Seconds
103) b5-b6              b5-b6   * 0 Seconds
104) c3xb4              Rh5xd5   
105) Rf1-d1             Rf1-b1   
106) Be6-h3             Be6-c4   
107) b6-b7              b6-b7   * 1 Second
108) Bh7-g8             e2-e4    
109) Re2-e1             Re2-e1  * 1 Second
110) Bf2-g3             Bf2-g3  * 0 Seconds
111) Rf2-f3             c2-c3    
112) g6-g7              g6xh7    
113) Nf1-g3             Nf1-g3  * 0 Seconds
114) f5-f6              Ba4-b3   
115) Qh5-h4             Qh5-h6   
116) Kc4-c3             Bf3-g4   
117) a6-a7              a6-a7   * 28 Seconds
118) Nc5-d3             Nc5-e4   
119) Bh6-g7             Bh6-g7  * 18 Seconds
120) Rc7xg7             Rc7xg7  * 0 Seconds
121) Nd6-c4             Nd6-c4  * 50 Seconds
122) Ng5-e4             Ng5-e4  * 21 Seconds
123) Ba3-c1             Ra1-a2   
124) Kd8-c7             g4xf5    
125) Nd8-c6             Nd8-c6  * 27 Seconds
126) e5-e6              e5-e6   * 1 Second
127) Qd1-d5             Qd1xd7   
128) Nh1-f2             Nh1-f2  * 37 Seconds
129) Ka5-a6, Nd1-e3     Ka5-a6  * 0 Seconds
130) Ke4-f3             Ke4-d5   
131) Ba3-d6             Ne2xc3   
132) Rg7xg4             Rg7xg4  * 0 Seconds
133) Nf5xh4             Nf5-e3   
134) Nf7-d8             Nf7-d8  * 27 Seconds
135) Nh5-f4             Qe7-c5   
136) Qb4-b7             Rd1-h1   
137) d3-d4              d3-d4   * 243 Seconds
138) Ne6-g5             Ne6-g5  * 1 Second
139) Rg2xg3             Rd2-d3   
140) Nb7-d6             Ng6xh4   
141) Rb6-h6             Rb6-h6  * 0 Seconds
142) Bb2-a3             Bb2-a3  * 2 Seconds
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

jhellis3
Posts: 401
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:36 pm

Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess

Post by jhellis3 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:39 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:Adding points to the existing score is a stupid way to solve it.
This is actually a very funny statement :D .

Zenmastur
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess

Post by Zenmastur » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:45 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:00 pm
The fact that contempt makes engines play better in some positions is nothing more than proof that engines are far too passive when the current score is drawn.

Adding points to the existing score is a stupid way to solve it.
I'm not so sure I agree. From iteration to iteration the principal leaf node changes value (generally in a somewhat random fashion around some central value). This creates a kind of an aspiration window for both sides around some central value. The PV may change radically while the PV score changes from iteration to iteration. When the search stops at iteration X you are given a single value score. This number is inadequate to describe the strength of the PV. Because if the score of the principal leaf node changes radically you will have little idea how far the score may drop (or rise) while a "new" PV is being searched for. This uncertainty about what the new score will settle on is a problem. Artificially altering the score of a leaf node can help clarify the "real" strength of the PV. Doing this for both side will bound the value of the PV between two values and increase the confidence level in the given score for the PV.

Or so the theory goes...

This does require more time. So, nothing is for free. The question is: Is the info obtained worth the extra time taken to obtain it?


Regards,

Zenmastur
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Dann Corbit
Posts: 10189
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:45 am

2nd file finished

Code: Select all

Analysis of G:\chess\epd\ACT1-B.epd   
Analyzing engine: Lc0
10/30/2019 5:27:01 AM Level: 720 Seconds
   Source                    : List of EPD/PGN files
      G:\chess\epd\ACT2.epd
      G:\chess\epd\ACT1-B.epd
   Colours                   : White moves=True, Black moves=True
   Direction                 : forward
   Games (PGN)               : From 1 to 999999
   Moves                     : From 1 to 250
   Positions (EPD)           : From 1 to 999999 
   Use Engine(s)             : List
      Lc0
   Use seconds per move      : 720 Seconds per move
   Analysis Lines            : Minimum search depth=2
   Activate abort analysis   : False
  1) Nc1-b3             Nc1-b3  * 10 Seconds
  2) Ra3-a8             Bb8xc7   
  3) Ne4-c5             Ne4-g5   
  4) Kd3-c4             Kd3-e3   
  5) Nd2-f3             Nd2-f3  * 56 Seconds
  6) Kd3-e2             Kd3-e2  * 0 Seconds
  7) a5-a6              Ra8xb8   
  8) Nd5-f4             Nd5-e7   
  9) Rb7-a7             Rb7-a7  * 0 Seconds
 10) b5-b6              b5xa6    
 11) g7xf8N             g7xf8N  * 0 Seconds
 12) Ra4-a8             Ra4-a8  * 134 Seconds
 13) b5xc6              b5xc6   * 1 Second
 14) h5-h6              h5-h6   * 5 Seconds
 15) b5-b6              b5-b6   * 15 Seconds
 16) Bg1-d4             Qg5xf6   
 17) Nb4-c2             Qe2-e5   
 18) Bd1-f3             Bd1xa4   
 19) Qg8-d8             Qg8-d8  * 59 Seconds
 20) Ng6-h8             Ng6-h8  * 0 Seconds
 21) Rd6-d8             Rd6-d8  * 75 Seconds
 22) g7-g8Q             g7-g8Q  * 670 Seconds
 23) Qb7-a6             Qb7-a6  * 2 Seconds
 24) Rb1-b8             Rb1-b8  * 95 Seconds
 25) a7-a8N             a7-a8Q   
 26) Nb4-a6             Nb4-d5   
 27) Bd6-c5             Bd6-c5  * 0 Seconds
 28) Kb8-c8             Kb8-c8  * 272 Seconds
 29) Nd3-b4             Nd3-b4  * 5 Seconds
 30) Qe3-g1             Bg2-e4   
 31) Rg6-a6             Rg6-a6  * 21 Seconds
 32) Nc3-d5             Nc3-d5  * 0 Seconds
 33) Nc1-b3             Nc1-e2   
 34) Bb2-d4             Rh5xd5   
 35) Rg7-g6             Qb3xc3   
 36) Bd7-e8             Bd7-e8  * 2 Seconds
 37) Qh3-g4             Qh3-g4  * 169 Seconds
 38) f5-f6              Ke4-f4   
 39) b2-b4              b2-b4   * 6 Seconds
 40) Kh2-g2             Kh2-g2  * 78 Seconds
 41) Qb5-b2, Qb5-g5     Qb5-g5  * 45 Seconds
 42) Ke5-e4             Ke5-e4  * 0 Seconds
 43) Bc7-d8             Bc7-d8  * 0 Seconds
 44) Nc4-e5             Nc4xb6   
 45) a3-a4              a3-a4   * 123 Seconds
 46) a5-a6              Ba3-e7   
 47) Na7-c8             Na7-c8  * 5 Seconds
 48) Qf2-a2             Qf2-c2   
 49) Qb8-e5             Qb8xb6   
 50) Nf4-e6             Nf4-e6  * 5 Seconds
 51) Bc8-a6             Ng4xe3   
 52) Kb5xb6             h5-h6    
 53) Qh2-h6             Qh2-h6  * 16 Seconds
 54) Ke4-d4             Ke4-d4  * 149 Seconds
 55) c2-c3              c2-c3   * 255 Seconds
 56) a6-a7              a6-a7   * 112 Seconds
 57) Bc1-b2             Bc1-b2  * 12 Seconds
 58) Nh7-f6             Nh7-g5   
 59) f6-f7              Bc7xd8   
 60) a7-a8Q             a7-a8Q  * 3 Seconds
 61) Ng4-f6             Ng4-f6  * 9 Seconds
 62) Nb6-d7             Nb6-d7  * 3 Seconds
 63) h5-h6              h5-h6   * 0 Seconds
 64) Ne4-f2             Ne4xc5   
 65) Nc8-d6             Ba3-b2   
 66) Nc4-d6             Nc4-d6  * 1 Second
 67) Rg8-h8             g3-g4    
 68) Ra2-g2             Ra2-g2  * 58 Seconds
 69) Bf5-d3             Rh2-h6   
 70) f2-f4              Rg2-g1   
 71) Rf5-h5             Nh2-g4   
 72) Nf3-g5             Nf3-g5  * 9 Seconds
 73) Ng8-e7             Ng8-f6   
 74) c5-c6              c5-c6   * 0 Seconds
 75) c6xd7              c6xd7   * 1 Second
 76) e5-e6              e5-e6   * 0 Seconds
 77) c2-c3              c2-c3   * 32 Seconds
 78) Qd2-f2             Qd2-f2  * 0 Seconds
 79) Nb2-d3             Ng1-e2   
 80) h3-h4              h3-h4   * 22 Seconds
 81) Qe4-d4             Kb6-a7   
 82) Rd7-d4             g2-g3    
 83) Rd2-b2             Rd2-b2  * 16 Seconds
 84) Rg8-h8             Bb7-e4   
 85) Nf8-d7             Nf8-d7  * 0 Seconds
 86) Qe3-f4             Qe3-f4  * 3 Seconds
 87) Rf8-f1             Rf8-f6   
 88) Qh5-h6             Qh5-g5   
 89) b2-b4              b2-b4   * 25 Seconds
 90) Qe4-d4             Qe4-e7   
 91) Bg3-f4             Bg3-f4  * 0 Seconds
 92) d5-d6              d5-d6   * 243 Seconds
 93) Qe1-g3             Qe1-g3  * 418 Seconds
 94) Na3-c2             Na3-c2  * 67 Seconds
 95) g5-g6              Nd7xf6   
 96) Bd7-a4             Bd7-a4  * 4 Seconds
 97) Qb1-c1             Qb1-f1   
 98) b7-b8N             b7-b8N  * 1 Second
 99) Rb6-f6             Rb6-g6   
100) Nb4-d5             Kb1xb2   
101) c2-c3              c2-c3   * 6 Seconds
102) Ke1-f1             Ke1-f1  * 0 Seconds
103) b5-b6              b5-b6   * 0 Seconds
104) c3xb4              Rh5xd5   
105) Rf1-d1             Rf1-b1   
106) Be6-h3             Be6-c4   
107) b6-b7              b6-b7   * 1 Second
108) Bh7-g8             e2-e4    
109) Re2-e1             Re2-e1  * 1 Second
110) Bf2-g3             Bf2-g3  * 0 Seconds
111) Rf2-f3             c2-c3    
112) g6-g7              g6xh7    
113) Nf1-g3             Nf1-g3  * 0 Seconds
114) f5-f6              Ba4-b3   
115) Qh5-h4             Qh5-h6   
116) Kc4-c3             Bf3-g4   
117) a6-a7              a6-a7   * 28 Seconds
118) Nc5-d3             Nc5-e4   
119) Bh6-g7             Bh6-g7  * 18 Seconds
120) Rc7xg7             Rc7xg7  * 0 Seconds
121) Nd6-c4             Nd6-c4  * 50 Seconds
122) Ng5-e4             Ng5-e4  * 21 Seconds
123) Ba3-c1             Ra1-a2   
124) Kd8-c7             g4xf5    
125) Nd8-c6             Nd8-c6  * 27 Seconds
126) e5-e6              e5-e6   * 1 Second
127) Qd1-d5             Qd1xd7   
128) Nh1-f2             Nh1-f2  * 37 Seconds
129) Ka5-a6, Nd1-e3     Ka5-a6  * 0 Seconds
130) Ke4-f3             Ke4-d5   
131) Ba3-d6             Ne2xc3   
132) Rg7xg4             Rg7xg4  * 0 Seconds
133) Nf5xh4             Nf5-e3   
134) Nf7-d8             Nf7-d8  * 27 Seconds
135) Nh5-f4             Qe7-c5   
136) Qb4-b7             Rd1-h1   
137) d3-d4              d3-d4   * 243 Seconds
138) Ne6-g5             Ne6-g5  * 1 Second
139) Rg2xg3             Rd2-d3   
140) Nb7-d6             Ng6xh4   
141) Rb6-h6             Rb6-h6  * 0 Seconds
142) Bb2-a3             Bb2-a3  * 2 Seconds
143) Ka5-b6             Nd5-c7   
144) Bg8-h7             Bg8-h7  * 2 Seconds
145) Rd8-d1             Nf1-d2   
146) Bh3-f5             Rc7xc8   
147) Kc8-d8             Bd5-f7   
148) Qb3-d1             Qb3-a3   
149) Bb4-a5             a4-a5    
150) d6-d7              d6-d7   * 16 Seconds
151) Na2-b4             Na2-b4  * 708 Seconds
152) Rg5xg2             Nh5-f4   
153) Bb3-d5             e3-e4    
154) Rb7-b4             Rb7-b1   
155) Qf7-f2, Qf7-f1     Ne8-f6   
156) d6-d7              Ng2xe3   
157) b5-b6              Be2-f1   
158) Re2-e3             Qc3xa3   
159) Kb4-a5             c4-c5    
160) Rf2-f1             Rf2-f1  * 580 Seconds
161) Nb3-a5             Rb7-c7   
162) Nd4-f3             Rg6xa6   
163) Ke6-d7             Bb6xd4   
164) Bh6-d2             Rd4-d5   
165) Bh5-e2             Bh5-e2  * 34 Seconds
166) Bc1-b2             Bc1-b2  * 146 Seconds
167) Ng2-f4             Ng2-f4  * 532 Seconds
168) Ka7-b7             Ka7-b7  * 58 Seconds
169) b3-b4              b3-b4   * 650 Seconds
170) Nf3-g1             Nf3-g1  * 129 Seconds
171) c2-c4              Rb1-e1   
172) b5-b6, d5-d6       b5-b6   * 41 Seconds
173) Bc2-h7             Bc2-h7  * 154 Seconds
174) Ra3xa6             Ra3-a4   
175) c2-c3              c2xd3    
176) Ra5-a6             Nd5-c3   
177) h7-h8Q             h7-h8Q  * 76 Seconds
178) Nd3-b4             Nd3-b4  * 44 Seconds
179) Ra5-a3             h3-h4    
180) Be1-h4             Be1-h4  * 7 Seconds
181) Ng4-e3             Kb6xb7   
182) Bh3-d7             Rh2xb2   
183) Rg4-g1             Rg4-g5   
95 of 183 matching moves
10/31/2019 6:05:42 PM, Total time: 12:38:41 PM Rated time: 19:31:52 = 70312 Seconds
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But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

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Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:07 am

Dann Corbit wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:00 pm
The fact that contempt makes engines play better in some positions is nothing more than proof that engines are far too passive when the current score is drawn.

Adding points to the existing score is a stupid way to solve it.
The target of contempt is not to play better but to beat weaker engines.

Contempt should help to prefer equal position that is more complex relative to simple draw and by this way help to beat weaker engines.

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Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:32 am

It is a cowardly way to play chess. If I think I face an equal, I try to make a tie, and if I think I face a weakling, I do not respect them.
I think that it is better to go for the win at all times, and maintain respect.
So, for instance, if I do not build a wall but leave holes, then we can both go through, and maybe I will lose to a stronger engine.
But then, I really deserve to lose anyway if it is stronger.
And trying to win is the object of the game.
I do not like the contempt approach in either direction. Going for the tie is cowardly. Trying to win only when you think your opponent is a weakling is cowardly. Are we a bunch of cowards playing chess?! Let's put on helmets to pick petunias and pansies.''
Go for it, and if you lose, you probably deserve to lose anyway.
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But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

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Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess

Post by mclane » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:46 am

Uri Blass wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:07 am
Dann Corbit wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:00 pm
The fact that contempt makes engines play better in some positions is nothing more than proof that engines are far too passive when the current score is drawn.

Adding points to the existing score is a stupid way to solve it.
The target of contempt is not to play better but to beat weaker engines.

Contempt should help to prefer equal position that is more complex relative to simple draw and by this way help to beat weaker engines.
I would not say they play passive. They have no clue about chess at all.
If there is nothing tactical, they Shuffle the pieces without plan.
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Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess

Post by hgm » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:23 am

Striving for tactically complex positions under the assumption that you will be able to handle theose better than your opponent is indeed a form of contempt. And contempt requires an asymmetric evaluation.

If you are an alpha-beta engine, it is justified to have a modest amount of such contempt, as it will be true more often than not. And you hardly ever would err the wrong way; alpha-beta search is the best algorithm known for tactics. So the worst that can happen against your own kin is that you are about equal, and in that case seeking tactics would hardly hurt. And against MCTS opponents you will benefit from it.

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Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess

Post by Ovyron » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:35 am

Uri Blass wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:07 am
The target of contempt is not to play better but to beat weaker engines.
Thanks to Contempt I started to beat stronger opponents in correspondence games.

This turned out to be the other way around as to what Dann says: before Contempt I was playing like a coward, I was playing safe, with a draw in hand, sound moves, positions I was certain I could handle. And my elo and strength were stuck for years with most games ending in draws, even against weaker opponents.

But after I had the bravery to go into complex positions where an engine would like both sides and where finding he best moves was difficult for me and my opponent, then my rating started to rise, I started to win more games, and the curious fact is that I can no longer tell the difference between opponent's strengths.

2400 rated players seem to play like 2100 rated players once you use Contempt, but 2100 rated players seem to play like 2400 rated players. What I mean is that I don't see the difference between their ability to deal with complex positions and they seem to fail to play them properly regardless of their rating.

I still don't know at what point one should stop. Something funny happened in the friendly match against Japan, where I have to play 2 games against the same opponent, one as white and one as black, and this Japanese guy played an opening as white similar to the one I played against him, and I reached on the board the most complex positions I could find.

After the dust settled I came out in a winning position in the game I was white, but on a losing position in the game I was black. If I win one game and lose the other not using Contempt would have given me the same score (2 draws instead of a win and a loss.) I hope I can win one game and save the other, but perhaps the lesson is that you should have Respect for opponents that have the white pieces, and that it's only a concept that works if you're white yourself.

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