italien opening

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what is your opinion about the italien opening?

White is winning with perfect play
0
No votes
White is better but draw with perfect play
0
No votes
Equal
0
No votes
Black is better but draw with perfect play
0
No votes
Black is winning
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 0

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Master Om
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:57 am
Location: INDIA

Re: italien opening

Post by Master Om » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:47 am

Ovyron wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:36 pm
Master Om wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:27 am
If white does not give chance all black will get is equality, Don;t except White plays like a noob against black. If Ruy Lopez stands out then Italian will so as both have same themes.
It is weird that this comes from you Master Om, because in 2011 you were holding that the Italian was a superior defense for black than the Spanish. Back then I held the Spanish was the best defense, so we started a series of matches where I'd try to beat your Italian and you'd try to beat my Spanish.

The result should be well know by you:

{url=http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... ?tid=22314]Game 1 1-0[/url] (you beat my Spanish)
{url=http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... ?tid=23346]Game 2 1-0[/url] (you beat my Spanish)
{url=http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... ?tid=25302]Game 3 1-0[/url] (I resigned the Spanish)
Game 4 1/2-1/2 (I drew with the Spanish)

It took me four games to be able to find a defense.

Apparently we never played the Italian part of the match :shock: but you used to be on the other side of these discussions, where it'd be more likely for white to "give chance" to black in the Italian than in the Spanish, where my best lines could never beat the opponents that I beat with the Italian.
No itsnt weird. I never said Italian or any opening holdable or not as it depends on the choice of openings. All mainlines in chess are equal. In e4 openings it takes time to equalise and that too with proper play. In d4 based openings u can play 2 tempos down even without issues.
U lost the 3 games against me as u blundered. Last one u didn't blunder hence match was drawn. U can loose in any opening if u blunder.
Always Expect the Unexpected

Uri Blass
Posts: 8594
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: italien opening

Post by Uri Blass » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:14 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:20 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:56 am
I think that even in the last case they can generalize from their experience against engines and play correctly moves that they know to be good in similiar situations.
Engines and humans play so completely different chess that even if you get a variation where you perform relatively well against engines they might be useless against humans.

I tried this back in Rebel Decade times, because I could beat the engine at Depth 6. So what I did was using the same openings and moves I was using to defeat Rebel Depth 6 against humans. The result was that I performed worse against humans than with my usual repertoire, because humans played nothing like Rebel, and they wouldn't play the blunders that were allowing me to beat Rebel, so it was useless.

My idea is to not to repeat lines that you win but to repeat lines that the engine beat you.

If stockfish with black with some opening book and the italien defence beat you then memorize stockfish's games against you and play the same moves that stockfish use to beat you.

Of course it is possible that the human opponent play not the same moves as you but in this case the difference is between different humans and not between human and engine.

jp
Posts: 825
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: italien opening

Post by jp » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:35 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:20 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:56 am
I think that even in the last case they can generalize from their experience against engines and play correctly moves that they know to be good in similiar situations.
Engines and humans play so completely different chess that even if you get a variation where you perform relatively well against engines they might be useless against humans.

I tried this back in Rebel Decade times, because I could beat the engine at Depth 6. So what I did was using the same openings and moves I was using to defeat Rebel Depth 6 against humans. The result was that I performed worse against humans than with my usual repertoire, because humans played nothing like Rebel, and they wouldn't play the blunders that were allowing me to beat Rebel, so it was useless.
That's not a good example, because it's about handicap levels. Programmers don't know how to make engine handicap levels natural.

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Ovyron
Posts: 2746
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:30 am

Re: italien opening

Post by Ovyron » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:08 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:14 pm
My idea is to not to repeat lines that you win but to repeat lines that the engine beat you.

If stockfish with black with some opening book and the italien defence beat you then memorize stockfish's games against you and play the same moves that stockfish use to beat you.
But this idea isn't specific about the Italian. Stockfish from any opening from black would play moves that would beat every human of the world, so you can memorize what it'd do in the Spanish or in the Sicilian, or whatever.

The humans will not play what engines play as white, so what engines play as white has no relevance.

Actually, if you're going to memorize an opening book, you must focus on the variations that allow you to win your games while minimizing what you have to memorize. The sharpest variations where opponents have little choice about what to do. The Italian isn't such a case.
jp wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:35 pm
That's not a good example, because it's about handicap levels. Programmers don't know how to make engine handicap levels natural.
It wasn't a handicap level. I was the strongest Rebel, except it was limited to only being able to see 3 moves ahead (and I could never beat it in the "3 moves and a halfmove ahead" level.)

I honestly don't get why programmers are so focused on handicap levels for engines that feel "natural", Rebel played very natural chess at all levels, so you just needed to adjust its depth. It even came with weakened personalities but they weren't necessary. They're trying to solve a problem that Ed Schröder solved decades ago. Mainly, the "Anti-GM" setting would fool you into thinking you're playing a human (even though it wasn't its purpose.)

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