italien opening

[Master Om]

lets Play again. Am not satisfied with my play.

Alright, here's the new game. I'll be taking another route (in case you think Ng5 is better) and will play a different 6th move if we transpose back to first game.

This is more of an experiment as I'd really like to see a hole in these lines (since I couldn't find it myself, that'd be really instructive.)

Ng5 Is draw after Na5. And also last line is draw too with the line u played. But am thinking something else.
Lets see. I will move after 3 days. I need to think.

[supersharp77]

I understand now that you do not claim that the italien is better for black but only that black can get an advantage against old books.

But new books with those lines score better against themselves from the black side, what is the explanation for that?

It could be argued that all my claims are null, since I'm mostly talking about Stockfish (and related branches)'s games, so it wouldn't be that the Italian is better for black in general, only if white is Stockfish. But I've been able to win with the Italian from the black side against much faster hardware and against Leela in a decent GPU, that was enough to convince me (mainly because I was never able to win against such opponents from the white side, sometimes they just ran over me, so something is going on there).

It is clearly a different claim and it is not clear that engines can get a position when they show advantage for black against kaufman's new repertoire.

The question is, was Larry aware of these black lines before building his new repertoire? Because it's clear these lines are mostly secret, held by privileged individuals, and I only know about them because I was extremely lucky that they were shared to me. I'm even afraid to talk about the resulting positions because people are smart enough to use retrograde analysis to figure out the moves from the Italian required to reach those positions.

I get the impression that either Larry didn't know about them, or he looked at them and concluded they had no value in human chess (because they're lines designed for computers to beat other computers), but only he can answer such questions.

Note the Italian isn't alone in this category. What is the best move in this position in the Sicilian?

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6

[d]rnbqkb1r/1p2pppp/p2p1n2/8/3NP3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq -

Well, it turns out the best move is 6.h3!! It's so good it almost kills the Sicilian (you're better playing 1...e5 just to avoid this), but it probably kills the Najdorf (so what happened?... that in computer chess the Sicilian became very rare!), but this is only because engines from the black side have a bigger problem dealing with it than with the other moves, wouldn't expect someone building a repertoire for 6.h3 and recommending it being played in human games, because the critical lines were also designed for computers to beat other computers.

I repeat that it's discussing apples and oranges and that these things are only useful against engines, but if you're going to play an engine it'll beat you anyway so playing the Italian as black or 6.h3 as white isn't really going to improve your chances.

The 6. h3 line..(investigated by R.J. Fischer himself) is anti-developmental but opens possibilities of a future kingside attack thats why people spent years playing 6.f3 with double edged results...The Sicilian has withstood all challenges over many years and the engines will avoid such lines if left to there own devices...Ok back to 6.h3 e5 7. Nb3 Be7 8.g4 h6 9.Bg2 then you have ...9. 0-0 or ...9. Be6 or ...9.Nc6 etc...variation is 100% unclear...perhaps black should not castle kingside? Who knows!

[supersharp77]

Ovyron claimed that the italien opening is good for black.

GM larry kaufman claims that it is good for white

his sample pages about his new repertoire has the following information:

"So how much of an edge can you get as White with my repertoire? Here
are the Elo advantages for White after my preferred response to the main
lines (per Hiarcs db):
- Caro-Kann Two Knights +40;
- French Tarrasch +45;
- Sicilian 2...♘c6 3.♗b5 +37;
- Sicilian 2...d6 3.♗b5+ +40;
- Petroff main line +37;
- Italian +30;
- Spanish Berlin 5.♖e1 with ♗f1 +42;
- Spanish 6.d3 +26"

What is your opinion?
I guess that most agree that it is a draw with perfect play but I added also 2 options that white is winning or black is winning.

The Majority Opinion Of The Guccio Piano is that white has a very very slight edge (microscopic) of .20 or less with best play but the chess engines seem to get a good game by attacking the exposed black or white Bishops...pins are also a problem on the kingside and once one side or the other weakens their kingside...all bets are off!!...I didn't observe a lot of draws in this line due to the position opening up later on to subtle "tactical opportunities"...

[Ovyron]

It seems that this claim was with no basis.

The basis was that black would outbook white and the advantage was coming from extra time in the clock. If you spend 10 extra moves on the book while your opponent does it on the clock then you'll perform better. This isn't apparent in correspondence games because the clocks are so immense those 10 moves don't matter.

What is ultimately surprising about all this is that we don't see the opposite, I'd have expected something like this to be for white outbooking black in the Italian for the same effect, so the Italian would be more appealing than the Spanish because you'd expect such a clock advantage. Instead, black does it.

I'd be really curious about who did this, because it's clear someone spent a huge deal of time working on a private book that would include most white lines to a ridiculous depth so black could outbook white at everything, and these lines leaked to other private books as people added the played games to them, yet we don't know who it was, or why was it done (I can't think of another opening where black outbooks white.)

[Dann Corbit]

{snip}
Note the Italian isn't alone in this category. What is the best move in this position in the Sicilian?

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6

[d]rnbqkb1r/1p2pppp/p2p1n2/8/3NP3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq -

Well, it turns out the best move is 6.h3!! It's so good it almost kills the Sicilian (you're better playing 1...e5 just to avoid this), but it probably kills the Najdorf (so what happened?... that in computer chess the Sicilian became very rare!), but this is only because engines from the black side have a bigger problem dealing with it than with the other moves, wouldn't expect someone building a repertoire for 6.h3 and recommending it being played in human games, because the critical lines were also designed for computers to beat other computers.

I repeat that it's discussing apples and oranges and that these things are only useful against engines, but if you're going to play an engine it'll beat you anyway so playing the Italian as black or 6.h3 as white isn't really going to improve your chances.

I think the Sicilian is drawn with or without h3. The moves: h3, Be3 and g3 all draw. What's more, the draws are in easy reach of today's hardware.

After h3 is made, the position performs statistically worse, based on wins, losses and draws in actual games, but it's drawn:
[d]rnbqkb1r/1p2pppp/p2p1n2/8/3NP3/2N4P/PPP2PP1/R1BQKB1R b KQkq - acd 60; bm e5; c3 "e6"; cce -69; ce 0; pm e5 {2108} e6 {2062} g6 {317} b5 {114} Nc6 {85} Nbd7 {15} h5 {13} Qc7 {8} h6 {6} b6 {1} Qb6 {1}; pv e5 Nde2 h5 g3 Be7 a4 Nc6 Bg2 Nb4 Bg5 Be6 Qd2 Rc8 O-O O-O Rfd1 Qc7 Rac1 Rfe8 Kh2 Rcd8 Qe3 Qc5 Qd2; white_wins 50533; black_wins 25087; draws 86399; Opening B90e Sicilian: Najdorf, Adams Attack;

And it was already drawn before we made the move h3
[d]rnbqkb1r/1p2pppp/p2p1n2/8/3NP3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - acd 60; bm Be3; c2 "lichess.org"; c3 "Bf4"; c4 "Be3"; cce -2; ce 0; pm Be3 {9880} Bg5 {7280} Be2 {4989} Bc4 {2664} h3 {1383} f3 {1367} f4 {1248} g3 {964} a4 {466} Bd3 {182} Nb3 {110} Qf3 {110} Rg1 {87} a3 {31} h4 {25} Qd3 {22} Qe2 {13} Nf3 {8} g4 {3} b3 {1} Bf4 {1} e5 {1} Nd5 {1}; pv Be3 e5 Nb3 Be6 f4 exf4 Bxf4 Nc6 Qd2 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Qxd5 Qxd5 Bxd5 O-O-O O-O-O Rg1 Be7 g3 Be6 Bg2 h5 h4 Bg4 Rxd8+ Rxd8 Re1 Kd7 c3 f6 a3 Rc8 Kc2 Bf5+ Kc1; white_wins 402916; black_wins 424370; draws 438917; Opening B90a Sicilian: Najdorf;

[Dann Corbit]

Ovyron claimed that the italien opening is good for black.

GM larry kaufman claims that it is good for white

his sample pages about his new repertoire has the following information:

"So how much of an edge can you get as White with my repertoire? Here
are the Elo advantages for White after my preferred response to the main
lines (per Hiarcs db):
- Caro-Kann Two Knights +40;
- French Tarrasch +45;
- Sicilian 2...♘c6 3.♗b5 +37;
- Sicilian 2...d6 3.♗b5+ +40;
- Petroff main line +37;
- Italian +30;
- Spanish Berlin 5.♖e1 with ♗f1 +42;
- Spanish 6.d3 +26"

What is your opinion?
I guess that most agree that it is a draw with perfect play but I added also 2 options that white is winning or black is winning.

I claim that it is good for black because it is drawn and a draw is good for black most of the time.
Main position:
[d]r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/2b1p3/2B1P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - acd 60; bm O-O; c2 "lichess.org"; c3 "Bxf7+"; c4 "c3"; cce -14; ce 0; pm c3 {5238} O-O {1607} d3 {1341} b4 {1213} Nc3 {280} d4 {39} Qe2 {17} a4 {8} a3 {7} Bb3 {2} Nxe5 {2} Ng5 {1} Rg1 {1}; pv O-O Nf6 d3 d6 c3 O-O Re1 h6 b4 Bb6 h3 Ne7 Nbd2 Ng6 a4 a5 b5 Re8 d4 exd4 cxd4 d5 exd5 Rxe1+ Qxe1 Nxd5 Nb3 Be6 Bd2 Qf6 Qe4 c6 bxc6 bxc6 Re1 Bf5 Qe2 Be6; white_wins 97057; black_wins 110581; draws 145353; Opening C50h Giuoco Piano;
In case you were wondering what if he does not castle? Is it still drawn?

Here are the two other popular continuations:
[d]r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/2b1p3/2B1P3/2P2N2/PP1P1PPP/RNBQK2R b KQkq - acd 60; bm Nf6; c3 "Nf6"; c4 "Nf6"; cce -35; ce 0; pm Nf6 {6552} Qe7 {155} d6 {109} Bb6 {74} Qf6 {24} Nge7 {4} h6 {3} a6 {1} f6 {1} Na5 {1}; pv Nf6 d3 d6 O-O O-O Re1 h6 h3 a5 a4 Be6 Nbd2 Qe7 Bxe6 fxe6 Nc4 Qf7 Qb3 b6 Bd2 Qg6 Be3 Bxe3 Rxe3 Nh5 Kh2 Nf4 Rg1 Qh5 Ncd2 d5 Qb5 Na7 Qa6 Nc6; white_wins 77710; black_wins 57946; draws 110207; Opening C53 Giuoco Piano: 4.c3;

[d]r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/2b1p3/2B1P3/3P1N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R b KQkq - acd 60; bm Nf6; c3 "Nf6"; cce -27; ce 0; pm Nf6 {2363} d6 {159} h6 {42} a6 {5} Nge7 {1}; pv Nf6 a4 O-O O-O a5 Be3 Bxe3 fxe3 h6 Nbd2 d6 Bb3 Ne7 Nh4 Be6 Bxe6 fxe6 Nhf3 Qd7 c3 Nc6 Rf2 Ng4 Re2 Rf7 h3 Nf6 Qb3 b6 Rf2 Ne7 Raf1 Ng6 Qc2 Qc6 Rc1 Rff8 Re1 Rad8 d4 Rde8 Kh2 Rd8 Rff1 Ra8 Rg1 Kh7 Rc1 Kg8; white_wins 29371; black_wins 23628; draws 38488; Opening C50n Giuoco Pianissimo: 4.d3;

Now, there is no proof here that any of these are drawn. But I think it very, very likely with best play.

No wonder they call it "The quiet game."

[Ovyron]

I think the Sicilian is drawn with or without h3. The moves: h3, Be3 and g3 all draw. What's more, the draws are in easy reach of today's hardware.

So what are the best moves that white has against the Sicilian according to you anyway? We know everything draws but we don't know if the opponent will find that path, so there's a clear discrimination of drawing lines and some are better than others.

Weak correspondence chess players are more prone to lose against 1.d4 than against 1.e4, so I've found the queen's pawn objectively better, saying that both draw with perfect play and raising our hands in submission isn't very useful.

[Dann Corbit]

I gave the lines for the three most popular choices directly above.
Of course, a pv is only good to the first alteration, and I certainly don't plan to provide refutations for every possible combination.
A 60 ply search (which takes about an hour) shows the three best moves with a score of 0.0 for many plies in a row.
I agree that there is a difference between dead drawn and dead drawn with winning chances. A great example of that is wac.230:
[d]2b5/1r6/2kBp1p1/p2pP1P1/2pP4/1pP3K1/1R3P2/8 b - -
The given best move is Rb4, and indeed, it is the only move with winning chances. But Alex Szabo proved it was a draw (though the case was later re-opened and closed several times) it turns out that white can create his own passer and create a draw. But in a game, I would certainly rather play Rb4 and have a chance to win, given a mistake, rather than let white complete the wall and create a draw chiseled in stone.

But that does not change the fact that it is still a draw.

[supersharp77]

Ovyron claimed that the italien opening is good for black.

GM larry kaufman claims that it is good for white

his sample pages about his new repertoire has the following information:

"So how much of an edge can you get as White with my repertoire? Here
are the Elo advantages for White after my preferred response to the main
lines (per Hiarcs db):
- Caro-Kann Two Knights +40;
- French Tarrasch +45;
- Sicilian 2...♘c6 3.♗b5 +37;
- Sicilian 2...d6 3.♗b5+ +40;
- Petroff main line +37;
- Italian +30;
- Spanish Berlin 5.♖e1 with ♗f1 +42;
- Spanish 6.d3 +26"

What is your opinion?
I guess that most agree that it is a draw with perfect play but I added also 2 options that white is winning or black is winning.

I claim that it is good for black because it is drawn and a draw is good for black most of the time.
Main position:
[d]r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/2b1p3/2B1P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - acd 60; bm O-O; c2 "lichess.org"; c3 "Bxf7+"; c4 "c3"; cce -14; ce 0; pm c3 {5238} O-O {1607} d3 {1341} b4 {1213} Nc3 {280} d4 {39} Qe2 {17} a4 {8} a3 {7} Bb3 {2} Nxe5 {2} Ng5 {1} Rg1 {1}; pv O-O Nf6 d3 d6 c3 O-O Re1 h6 b4 Bb6 h3 Ne7 Nbd2 Ng6 a4 a5 b5 Re8 d4 exd4 cxd4 d5 exd5 Rxe1+ Qxe1 Nxd5 Nb3 Be6 Bd2 Qf6 Qe4 c6 bxc6 bxc6 Re1 Bf5 Qe2 Be6; white_wins 97057; black_wins 110581; draws 145353; Opening C50h Giuoco Piano;
In case you were wondering what if he does not castle? Is it still drawn?

Here are the two other popular continuations:
[d]r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/2b1p3/2B1P3/2P2N2/PP1P1PPP/RNBQK2R b KQkq - acd 60; bm Nf6; c3 "Nf6"; c4 "Nf6"; cce -35; ce 0; pm Nf6 {6552} Qe7 {155} d6 {109} Bb6 {74} Qf6 {24} Nge7 {4} h6 {3} a6 {1} f6 {1} Na5 {1}; pv Nf6 d3 d6 O-O O-O Re1 h6 h3 a5 a4 Be6 Nbd2 Qe7 Bxe6 fxe6 Nc4 Qf7 Qb3 b6 Bd2 Qg6 Be3 Bxe3 Rxe3 Nh5 Kh2 Nf4 Rg1 Qh5 Ncd2 d5 Qb5 Na7 Qa6 Nc6; white_wins 77710; black_wins 57946; draws 110207; Opening C53 Giuoco Piano: 4.c3;

[d]r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/2b1p3/2B1P3/3P1N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R b KQkq - acd 60; bm Nf6; c3 "Nf6"; cce -27; ce 0; pm Nf6 {2363} d6 {159} h6 {42} a6 {5} Nge7 {1}; pv Nf6 a4 O-O O-O a5 Be3 Bxe3 fxe3 h6 Nbd2 d6 Bb3 Ne7 Nh4 Be6 Bxe6 fxe6 Nhf3 Qd7 c3 Nc6 Rf2 Ng4 Re2 Rf7 h3 Nf6 Qb3 b6 Rf2 Ne7 Raf1 Ng6 Qc2 Qc6 Rc1 Rff8 Re1 Rad8 d4 Rde8 Kh2 Rd8 Rff1 Ra8 Rg1 Kh7 Rc1 Kg8; white_wins 29371; black_wins 23628; draws 38488; Opening C50n Giuoco Pianissimo: 4.d3;

Now, there is no proof here that any of these are drawn. But I think it very, very likely with best play.

No wonder they call it "The quiet game."

"Thanks for the Stats Dann C"

Well with all the fine numbers put out there by Dann C. thought it best to "Put a pencil to the numbers and look at the final stats" "And see whats what"........Here are some "late night calculations"......

Qb6 {1}; pv e5 Nde2 h5 g3 Be7 a4 Nc6 Bg2 Nb4 Bg5 Be6 Qd2 Rc8 O-O O-O Rfd1 Qc7 Rac1 Rfe8 Kh2 Rcd8 Qe3 Qc5 Qd2; white_wins 50533; black_wins 25087; draws 86399; Opening B90e Sicilian: Najdorf, Adams Attack;

Stats Total Games=162019
W. Wins%=31.189
B. Wins%=15.483
Draws-%=53.326

6.h3 Subtle but Effective?

Bxd5 O-O-O O-O-O Rg1 Be7 g3 Be6 Bg2 h5 h4 Bg4 Rxd8+ Rxd8 Re1 Kd7 c3 f6 a3 Rc8 Kc2 Bf5+ Kc1; white_wins 402916; black_wins 424370; draws 438917; Opening B90a Sicilian: Najdorf;

Stats Total Games=1266203
W. Wins%=31.820
B. Wins%=33.315
Draws-%=34.664

Wow...Interesting Numbers!!..Tactics...

Nbd2 Ng6 a4 a5 b5 Re8 d4 exd4 cxd4 d5 exd5 Rxe1+ Qxe1 Nxd5 Nb3 Be6 Bd2 Qf6 Qe4 c6 bxc6 bxc6 Re1 Bf5 Qe2 Be6; white_wins 97057; black_wins 110581; draws 145353; Opening C50h Giuoco Piano;
In case you were wondering what if he does not castle? Is it still drawn?

Stats Total Games=352991
W. Wins%=27.495
B. Wins%=31.326
Draws-%=41.177

White makes blacks job easier?

Bxe3 Rxe3 Nh5 Kh2 Nf4 Rg1 Qh5 Ncd2 d5 Qb5 Na7 Qa6 Nc6; white_wins 77710; black_wins 57946; draws 110207; Opening C53 Giuoco Piano: 4.c3;

Stats Total Games=245863
W. Wins%=31.607
B. Wins%=23.568
Draws-%=44.824

White Slightly better...

Bxe3 fxe3 h6 Nbd2 d6 Bb3 Ne7 Nh4 Be6 Bxe6 fxe6 Nhf3 Qd7 c3 Nc6 Rf2 Ng4 Re2 Rf7 h3 Nf6 Qb3 b6 Rf2 Ne7 Raf1 Ng6 Qc2 Qc6 Rc1 Rff8 Re1 Rad8 d4 Rde8 Kh2 Rd8 Rff1 Ra8 Rg1 Kh7 Rc1 Kg8; white_wins 29371; black_wins 23628; draws 38488; Opening C50n Giuoco Pianissimo: 4.d3;

Stats Total Games=91487
W. Wins%=32.104
B. Wins%=25.826
Draws-%=42.069

White ahead by a bit....

If engine A (white) is better and deeper than engine B (black)........white wins 90% of the games...regardless of the lines...main line Najdorf.....if equally matched....result is around 33% to get a win or loss or a draw...If your gonna watch these engine games..may as well have some EXCITEMENT....while you watch...

[Ovyron]

The second game where the "Busted Italian" lines were put to the test at correspondence time controls just finished:

The Busted Italian II

[pgn][White "Master Om"]
[Black "Uly"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O d6 6. c3
O-O 7. Bg5 Bb6 8. Nbd2 h6 9. Bh4 g5 10. Bg3 Nh7 11. a4 a6
12. Bb3 h5 13. h4 g4 14. Ne1 Ba7 15. Nc4 Be6 16. Nc2 Qf6
17. a5 Ne7 18. Qe1 [/pgn]

While black has thus failed to reach any line with an edge, white hasn't been able to get an eval above 0.00 either.

7...Bb6 is an interesting move in that it was mentioned by Hikaru Nakamura in one of his videos (he calls it the best move, so these lines are known by elite players. As a human I really don't understand why Bc5-Bb6-Ba7 is so good... why not just Ba7? Why can't white take advantage of the lost tempi?)

The third game is underway and I really hope white can get an edge and refute these defenses, because I already played the best black had and couldn't flip the tables, the only interesting thing remaining is to see black's defenses being cracked.