italien opening

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what is your opinion about the italien opening?

White is winning with perfect play
0
No votes
White is better but draw with perfect play
0
No votes
Equal
1
100%
Black is better but draw with perfect play
0
No votes
Black is winning
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 1

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: italien opening

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:08 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:20 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:56 am
I think that even in the last case they can generalize from their experience against engines and play correctly moves that they know to be good in similiar situations.
Engines and humans play so completely different chess that even if you get a variation where you perform relatively well against engines they might be useless against humans.

I tried this back in Rebel Decade times, because I could beat the engine at Depth 6. So what I did was using the same openings and moves I was using to defeat Rebel Depth 6 against humans. The result was that I performed worse against humans than with my usual repertoire, because humans played nothing like Rebel, and they wouldn't play the blunders that were allowing me to beat Rebel, so it was useless.
That does not mean that the humans are better than Rebel that was dumped to depth 6 ....

It's just that the humans compared to Rebel were playing at a higher depth relatively speaking .....
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

zullil
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Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: italien opening

Post by zullil » Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:35 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:55 am
The second game where the "Busted Italian" lines were put to the test at correspondence time controls just finished:

The Busted Italian II



While black has thus failed to reach any line with an edge, white hasn't been able to get an eval above 0.00 either.

7...Bb6 is an interesting move in that it was mentioned by Hikaru Nakamura in one of his videos (he calls it the best move, so these lines are known by elite players. As a human I really don't understand why Bc5-Bb6-Ba7 is so good... why not just Ba7? Why can't white take advantage of the lost tempi?)

The third game is underway and I really hope white can get an edge and refute these defenses, because I already played the best black had and couldn't flip the tables, the only interesting thing remaining is to see black's defenses being cracked.
FWIW, both Cfish-dev and Lc0 (Network 384x30-t60-4300) suggest 15. d4 rather than Nc4.

info depth 56 seldepth 95 multipv 1 score cp 53 nodes 338774206822 nps 32467023 hashfull 1000 tbhits 12578678 time 10434409 pv d3d4 e5d4 e1d3 h7f6 d1c2 f8e8 a1d1 c8e6 b3e6 e8e6 d3f4 e6e8 f1e1 d8d7 c2c1 e8e7 f4d5 f6d5 e4d5 e7e1 d1e1 c6e7 d2e4 d7f5 c3c4 f5g6 e4d6 c7d6 e1e7 d4d3 e7b7 a7d4 b7b3 a8c8 g1h2 a6a5 c1d2 c8c4 b3d3 d4c5 d3b3 c5b4 d2e2 c4c2 e2e8 g8g7 b3e3 g6f5 e8a8 f5c8 a8c8 c2c8 f2f3 g4f3 e3f3 c8c2 g3f2 c2d2 f3f4 b4c5 f2c5 d6c5 f4f5 d2b2 d5d6 b2d2 f5c5 d2d6 c5a5 d6d4 h2g3 d4g4 g3f3

Code: Select all

0706 17:47:48.114576 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/stoppers/stoppers.cc:66] Stopped search: Reached visits limit: 100000261>=100000000
0706 17:47:48.114752 140544715273984 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:222] << info depth 31 seldepth 93 time 6535881 nodes 100000261 score cp 22 wdl 424 307 269 nps 15308 tbhits 971 pv d3d4 e5d4 e1d3 f8e8 f1e1 d4c3 b2c3 c6e5 d3f4 d8f6 f4d5 f6d8 d5f4 d8f6 d2c4 c8e6 f4h5 f6h6 c4e5 d6e5 b3e6 h6e6 g3h2 a8d8 d1e2 d8d6 a1b1 d6c6 e1c1 a7b6 c3c4 b6c5 h5g3 b7b6 g3f5 e6g6 c1e1 h7f6 b1d1 g8h7 h2g3 c6e6 g1h2 c5d4 e1f1 a6a5 d1d3 c7c5 d3b3 e8g8
0706 17:47:48.114995 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:469] === Move stats:
0706 17:47:48.115007 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] g3e5  (617 ) N:    1650 (+ 0) (P:  0.68%) (WL: -0.92915) (D: 0.018) (M: 48.6) (Q: -0.92915) (U: 1.08417) (S:  0.15501) (V: -0.9751) 
0706 17:47:48.115013 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] d1g4  (91  ) N:    1655 (+ 0) (P:  0.72%) (WL: -0.98933) (D: 0.003) (M: 38.7) (Q: -0.98933) (U: 1.14433) (S:  0.15500) (V: -0.9965) 
0706 17:47:48.115021 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] b3f7  (463 ) N:    1686 (+ 0) (P:  0.71%) (WL: -0.95338) (D: 0.019) (M: 54.0) (Q: -0.95338) (U: 1.10811) (S:  0.15472) (V: -0.9858) 
0706 17:47:48.115027 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] d1f3  (88  ) N:    1689 (+ 0) (P:  0.72%) (WL: -0.97176) (D: 0.007) (M: 40.7) (Q: -0.97176) (U: 1.12696) (S:  0.15520) (V: -0.9972) 
0706 17:47:48.115033 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] b3e6  (461 ) N:    1724 (+ 0) (P:  0.73%) (WL: -0.95295) (D: 0.013) (M: 48.7) (Q: -0.95295) (U: 1.10818) (S:  0.15522) (V: -0.9896) 
0706 17:47:48.115044 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] g3f4  (614 ) N:    1791 (+ 0) (P:  0.75%) (WL: -0.95505) (D: 0.014) (M: 40.7) (Q: -0.95505) (U: 1.10994) (S:  0.15489) (V: -0.9880) 
0706 17:47:48.115064 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] g3h2  (605 ) N:    1899 (+ 0) (P:  0.59%) (WL: -0.66001) (D: 0.135) (M: 74.6) (Q: -0.66001) (U: 0.81510) (S:  0.15509) (V: -0.7727) 
0706 17:47:48.115070 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] d2f3  (290 ) N:    2030 (+ 0) (P:  0.84%) (WL: -0.93367) (D: 0.023) (M: 57.1) (Q: -0.93367) (U: 1.08897) (S:  0.15530) (V: -0.9685) 
0706 17:47:48.115086 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] e1f3  (112 ) N:    2108 (+ 0) (P:  0.87%) (WL: -0.93539) (D: 0.023) (M: 56.3) (Q: -0.93539) (U: 1.09064) (S:  0.15525) (V: -0.9676) 
0706 17:47:48.115091 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] c3c4  (485 ) N:    3258 (+ 0) (P:  0.71%) (WL: -0.41903) (D: 0.225) (M: 89.5) (Q: -0.41903) (U: 0.57438) (S:  0.15535) (V: -0.3979) 
0706 17:47:48.115096 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] a1a2  (7   ) N:    5472 (+ 0) (P:  0.96%) (WL: -0.30810) (D: 0.272) (M: 95.5) (Q: -0.30810) (U: 0.46344) (S:  0.15534) (V: -0.2294) 
0706 17:47:48.115101 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] b3d5  (459 ) N:    6238 (+ 0) (P:  1.45%) (WL: -0.45904) (D: 0.209) (M: 86.0) (Q: -0.45904) (U: 0.61440) (S:  0.15537) (V: -0.1821) 
0706 17:47:48.115106 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] a1a3  (10  ) N:    6434 (+ 0) (P:  1.04%) (WL: -0.27017) (D: 0.264) (M: 92.7) (Q: -0.27017) (U: 0.42540) (S:  0.15524) (V: -0.1936) 
0706 17:47:48.115111 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] d2b1  (274 ) N:    9088 (+ 0) (P:  1.19%) (WL: -0.18862) (D: 0.290) (M: 98.2) (Q: -0.18862) (U: 0.34399) (S:  0.15537) (V: -0.1499) 
0706 17:47:48.115116 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] d1b1  (73  ) N:   11885 (+ 0) (P:  1.11%) (WL: -0.09059) (D: 0.296) (M: 96.9) (Q: -0.09059) (U: 0.24596) (S:  0.15537) (V: -0.1060) 
0706 17:47:48.115120 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] b3c4  (454 ) N:   13168 (+ 0) (P:  1.78%) (WL: -0.20054) (D: 0.301) (M: 99.3) (Q: -0.20054) (U: 0.35589) (S:  0.15535) (V: -0.0442) 
0706 17:47:48.115125 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] d1c2  (80  ) N:   14564 (+ 0) (P:  1.19%) (WL: -0.05930) (D: 0.294) (M: 97.7) (Q: -0.05930) (U: 0.21466) (S:  0.15536) (V: -0.0840) 
0706 17:47:48.115130 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] a1b1  (0   ) N:   15107 (+ 0) (P:  1.36%) (WL: -0.08180) (D: 0.327) (M: 103.7) (Q: -0.08180) (U: 0.23715) (S:  0.15535) (V: -0.1091) 
0706 17:47:48.115135 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] b3a2  (441 ) N:   18366 (+ 0) (P:  2.24%) (WL: -0.16606) (D: 0.291) (M: 96.3) (Q: -0.16606) (U: 0.32140) (S:  0.15534) (V: -0.0063) 
0706 17:47:48.115140 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] b3c2  (443 ) N:   18437 (+ 0) (P:  1.35%) (WL: -0.03769) (D: 0.321) (M: 102.9) (Q: -0.03769) (U: 0.19301) (S:  0.15533) (V: -0.0085) 
0706 17:47:48.115145 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] d1c1  (74  ) N:   21003 (+ 0) (P:  1.82%) (WL: -0.07266) (D: 0.323) (M: 102.3) (Q: -0.07266) (U: 0.22802) (S:  0.15536) (V: -0.0564) 
0706 17:47:48.115150 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] a1c1  (1   ) N:   27441 (+ 0) (P:  2.06%) (WL: -0.04246) (D: 0.300) (M: 96.6) (Q: -0.04246) (U: 0.19782) (S:  0.15537) (V: -0.0059) 
0706 17:47:48.115155 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] d1e2  (82  ) N:   81660 (+ 0) (P:  5.26%) (WL: -0.01447) (D: 0.299) (M: 96.9) (Q: -0.01447) (U: 0.16984) (S:  0.15537) (V:  0.0737) 
0706 17:47:48.115170 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] a4a5  (667 ) N:   92731 (+ 0) (P:  4.95%) (WL:  0.01465) (D: 0.336) (M: 106.4) (Q:  0.01465) (U: 0.14072) (S:  0.15536) (V:  0.0693) 
0706 17:47:48.115175 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] g1h1  (153 ) N:  282920 (+ 0) (P:  5.39%) (WL:  0.10231) (D: 0.318) (M: 101.5) (Q:  0.10231) (U: 0.05022) (S:  0.15252) (V:  0.0496) 
0706 17:47:48.115180 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] d2c4  (292 ) N:  467256 (+ 0) (P: 13.87%) (WL:  0.07644) (D: 0.315) (M: 100.0) (Q:  0.07644) (U: 0.07825) (S:  0.15468) (V:  0.2198) 
0706 17:47:48.115188 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] g1h2  (157 ) N: 1017598 (+ 0) (P:  6.66%) (WL:  0.13273) (D: 0.315) (M: 100.8) (Q:  0.13273) (U: 0.01725) (S:  0.14998) (V:  0.1111) 
0706 17:47:48.115193 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] e1c2  (104 ) N: 1442357 (+ 0) (P: 33.81%) (WL:  0.09164) (D: 0.346) (M: 103.3) (Q:  0.09164) (U: 0.06178) (S:  0.15342) (V:  0.2190) 
0706 17:47:48.115198 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] d3d4  (518 ) N: 96429045 (+30) (P:  5.18%) (WL:  0.15523) (D: 0.306) (M: 99.5) (Q:  0.15523) (U: 0.00014) (S:  0.15537) (V:  0.0986) 
0706 17:47:48.115203 140544715273984 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:470] node  (  29) N: 100000261 (+30) (P: 100.0%) (WL:  0.15264) (D: 0.305) (M: 100.0) (Q:  0.15264) (V:  0.1941) 

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Ovyron
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Re: italien opening

Post by Ovyron » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:55 pm

15.d4 is 0.00 (like 15.Nc4 but it took my opponent more than 11 days of analysis to see that 15.Nc4 is 0.00), anybody thinking otherwise is welcome to jump in :D

I wonder how long would an unassisted engine need to see this correct score...

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Master Om
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Re: italien opening

Post by Master Om » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:51 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:55 pm
15.d4 is 0.00 (like 15.Nc4 but it took my opponent more than 11 days of analysis to see that 15.Nc4 is 0.00), anybody thinking otherwise is welcome to jump in :D

I wonder how long would an unassisted engine need to see this correct score...
Wrong. It took 11 days to find d4 and all sub variations is 0.00 so i opted for non main line move Nc4 and delayed d4 with suitable preparation.
Always Expect the Unexpected

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Ovyron
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Re: italien opening

Post by Ovyron » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:02 pm

Master Om wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:51 pm
Wrong. It took 11 days to find d4 and all sub variations is 0.00 so i opted for non main line move Nc4 and delayed d4 with suitable preparation.
And now you've been preparing 1.e4 for 2 weeks.
Your beliefs create your reality, so be careful what you wish for.

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Master Om
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Re: italien opening

Post by Master Om » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:52 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:02 pm
Master Om wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:51 pm
Wrong. It took 11 days to find d4 and all sub variations is 0.00 so i opted for non main line move Nc4 and delayed d4 with suitable preparation.
And now you've been preparing 1.e4 for 2 weeks.
NO. I have about more than 20 games ICCF and 5 games of AICCF. Hence not able to get cpu time to analyse and play. Will play in a day.
Always Expect the Unexpected

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Ovyron
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Re: italien opening

Post by Ovyron » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:33 pm

Master Om wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:52 pm
NO. I have about more than 20 games ICCF and 5 games of AICCF. Hence not able to get cpu time to analyse and play. Will play in a day.
That's fine, take as much time as you need, that's why we don't have clocks. I was just friendly teasing :mrgreen:

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Master Om
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Re: italien opening

Post by Master Om » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:02 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:33 pm
Master Om wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:52 pm
NO. I have about more than 20 games ICCF and 5 games of AICCF. Hence not able to get cpu time to analyse and play. Will play in a day.
That's fine, take as much time as you need, that's why we don't have clocks. I was just friendly teasing :mrgreen:
Thank u very much... :D
Always Expect the Unexpected

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