Women World Fischer Random Championship 2019 Next Month in USA

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Ovyron
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Re: Women World Fischer Random Championship 2019 Next Month in USA

Post by Ovyron » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:53 pm

jp wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:44 pm
Your bogus argument was that what some computer program can or cannot do proves that Chess960 is "not chess".
Programs were just an example, but this applies to humans as well. Say, you bring a kid that just learned chess to her first Chess960 game, with pieces shuffled, and claim it's still "chess".

Will she be surprised whenever you play some weird castle on some move? If so, the game on her head (chess) and the game on your head (FRC) were different. This isn't unlike me inviting you to play a game of "chess" but on a move out of nowhere I drop a Knight on the board and put you in check, and you're surprised to discover we're playing a variant, which is not chess (like FRC is not chess.)

The part where it diverges is when you have to explain to her "the difference between this and chess is these weird castling rules I'm going to explain", and you have to proceed to explain them and give examples. If this was chess this wouldn't be necessary.

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Re: Women World Fischer Random Championship 2019 Next Month in USA

Post by jp » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:04 am

Ovyron wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:53 pm
jp wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:44 pm
Your bogus argument was that what some computer program can or cannot do proves that Chess960 is "not chess".
Programs were just an example
That's not what you wrote on p.1. You wrote "prove", not "example".

And example of what? It's an example that programs can't engage in abstract thought, generalization, etc., because a human can easily understand the castling rule and game as a simple generalization.
(Of course no human is forced to like that generalization, but that's what it is.)

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Ovyron
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Re: Women World Fischer Random Championship 2019 Next Month in USA

Post by Ovyron » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:10 am

jp wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:04 am
because a human can easily understand the castling rule and game as a simple generalization.
But a human that has learned chess castling hasn't learned Chess960 castling. This is a core part that differentiates something that is from something that isn't:

All X have Y.
Z doesn't have Y.
Therefore, Z isn't X.
QED

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Re: Women World Fischer Random Championship 2019 Next Month in USA

Post by jp » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:09 am

Ovyron wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:10 am
But a human that has learned chess castling hasn't learned Chess960 castling.
Chess960 is a generalization. It includes traditional chess as a subset.

The castling is a simple generalization of castling with the traditional starting position (but not the only possible one).

I've said all this before...

The variants people talk about are not generalizations.

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Re: Women World Fischer Random Championship 2019 Next Month in USA

Post by hgm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:14 pm

Chess is a form of Chess960. That makes that Chess960 is not really an independent variant. That the reverse is not true is not relevant.

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Re: Women World Fischer Random Championship 2019 Next Month in USA

Post by Ovyron » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:58 pm

jp wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:09 am
Chess960 is a generalization.
In chess, you can only castle if your king is on the e file, the castling rook on the a or h file, and they haven't moved.

In Chess960, only 48 positions include chess castling (448-465 and 496-527), the rest aren't chess and the difference is clear. 480 positions of it are the same ones as the other half (mirrored) and the only difference is where kings and rooks end up when castling.

Knowing this, I can not only logically prove that FRC isn't chess, I can also prove that the fact it's not chess makes a difference.

I'm going to show you a board, and I'm going to ask you a question. If you can answer it, then FRC is chess:

Image

Can white castle?

Can you answer it? Go ahead. Try it.

You can't answer it!

Wait, if it's chess then the correct answer is:

No.

White can't castle in that chess position, as simple as that.

This holds for 48 positions in FRC that are chess.

For the rest, you don't know, you need an entire game history to see if the king is on its starting square and to see if the white rooks have moved or not. This is a difference that can be used to know if it's chess or not, if you need extra info to tell if white castling is possible or not this makes it a distinct game.

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Re: Women World Fischer Random Championship 2019 Next Month in USA

Post by hgm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:15 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:58 pm
In chess, you can only castle if your king is on the e file, the castling rook on the a or h file, and they haven't moved.
You can only castle if they haven't moved. FIDE rules do not specify which files they have to be in for castling.

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Ovyron
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Re: Women World Fischer Random Championship 2019 Next Month in USA

Post by Ovyron » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:17 pm

hgm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:15 pm
You can only castle if they haven't moved. FIDE rules do not specify which files they have to be in for castling.
But they specify their starting squares, and if they haven't moved, they're still there.

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Re: Women World Fischer Random Championship 2019 Next Month in USA

Post by hgm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:47 pm

But Chess960 does not specify starting squares.

Different starting position is not enough to qualify as a new variant. It would at best make it a sub-variant.

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Re: Women World Fischer Random Championship 2019 Next Month in USA

Post by Ovyron » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:34 pm

But if chess is a sub-variant of Chess960 (the one played when you get the right dice rolls) how can FRC be a sub-variant of chess?

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