In No castling Chess what Engine would be the King or the best?

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D Sceviour
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Re: In No castling Chess what Engine would be the King or the best?

Post by D Sceviour » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:38 am

Ovyron wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:31 am
D Sceviour wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:21 pm
Does "no castling chess" have an official variant name?
Probably "NCC" because it seems Armageddon will be the last variant named by creative people :mrgreen:
How about the Kramnik variant? I am not a big follower of GM Vladimir Kramnik, but he seems to have invented it.

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Re: In No castling Chess what Engine would be the King or the best?

Post by lkaufman » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:57 am

D Sceviour wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:38 am
Ovyron wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:31 am
D Sceviour wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:21 pm
Does "no castling chess" have an official variant name?
Probably "NCC" because it seems Armageddon will be the last variant named by creative people :mrgreen:
How about the Kramnik variant? I am not a big follower of GM Vladimir Kramnik, but he seems to have invented it.
I don't mind naming it after Kramnik, but he certainly didn't "invent" it. He just proposed reverting to the older rules, before castling was introduced.
Komodo rules!

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Nordlandia
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Re: In No castling Chess what Engine would be the King or the best?

Post by Nordlandia » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:54 am

Not that i'm against Kramnik and his request at all. But it seems that to propose some radical change to the game and getting his message heard, he need big chess infuence.

Just look at Carlsen and Nakamura, they play some FRC games every year and some portion of the community follow their steps. If they did play Seirawan Chess, people will start playing that. If Carlsen jumps into the sea, the fans will also do that :)

So apparently it is my observation that top GMs have to be cautious what they do.

I think Kramniks idea is good but again won't affect amateur chess level i suppose.

I can imagine that watching NCS or armageddon w/o castling very exciting. But ideally engines need to know they're playing these modes and especially the latter.

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Ovyron
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Re: In No castling Chess what Engine would be the King or the best?

Post by Ovyron » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:42 pm

Nordlandia wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:54 am
Just look at Carlsen and Nakamura, they play some FRC games every year and some portion of the community follow their steps. If they did play Seirawan Chess, people will start playing that. If Carlsen jumps into the sea, the fans will also do that :)
Don't they do that because of the prizes provided by FIDE? Like, with a prize fund of $375,000 they could promote any game they wanted, and top players would be there to try winning it?

So I think FIDE is the real puppet-master here.

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Nordlandia
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Re: In No castling Chess what Engine would be the King or the best?

Post by Nordlandia » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:44 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:42 pm
Nordlandia wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:54 am
Just look at Carlsen and Nakamura, they play some FRC games every year and some portion of the community follow their steps. If they did play Seirawan Chess, people will start playing that. If Carlsen jumps into the sea, the fans will also do that :)
Don't they do that because of the prizes provided by FIDE? Like, with a prize fund of $375,000 they could promote any game they wanted, and top players would be there to try winning it?

So I think FIDE is the real puppet-master here.
You're right. Money has to be on the table.

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Re: In No castling Chess what Engine would be the King or the best?

Post by lkaufman » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:32 pm

D Sceviour wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:02 am
D Sceviour wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:21 pm
Does "no castling chess" have an official variant name?

Winboard says it is "nocastle" I suppose.
"nocastle" is a Fischer Random Castling variant without castling it seems from trying to get it to play in Winboard. So the question still remains, is there a variant name for standard chess without castling?

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but this can be re-posted under a new topic if anybody wants.
Fischer Random without castling was called "shuffle chess", it shouldn't have two names, so no castle chess seems like the proper name for normal chess without castling, regardless of what some GUI says. Well there may be a slight distinction in that shuffle chess normally allowed castling if the kings and rooks happened to be on their normal squares, but that's rather rare so no good reason for both variants to exist.
Komodo rules!

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Re: In No castling Chess what Engine would be the King or the best?

Post by lkaufman » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:41 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:42 pm
Nordlandia wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:54 am
Just look at Carlsen and Nakamura, they play some FRC games every year and some portion of the community follow their steps. If they did play Seirawan Chess, people will start playing that. If Carlsen jumps into the sea, the fans will also do that :)
Don't they do that because of the prizes provided by FIDE? Like, with a prize fund of $375,000 they could promote any game they wanted, and top players would be there to try winning it?

So I think FIDE is the real puppet-master here.
Well, it's not only FIDE; the St. Louis chess club provided a large prize fund for a top-level FRC event too. They wouldn't do this unless they believed that chess fans would want to watch; if they ran some silly variant few would watch and few would play it afterwards. Also if the variant is too different from normal chess then the same players might not be the best at it and so inviting them wouldn't make sense or be interesting.
Komodo rules!

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Nordlandia
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Re: In No castling Chess what Engine would be the King or the best?

Post by Nordlandia » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:53 pm

Perhaps St. Louis can arrange a crazyhouse event and invite the best online players.

Crazyhouse is on par 960 on lichess. Crazyhouse is not "silly"

Crazyhouse or bughouse community has always been big on the internet and OTB. I personally think some of the online variants can be introduced OTB.

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Re: In No castling Chess what Engine would be the King or the best?

Post by D Sceviour » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:11 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:32 pm
D Sceviour wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:02 am
D Sceviour wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:21 pm
Does "no castling chess" have an official variant name?

Winboard says it is "nocastle" I suppose.
"nocastle" is a Fischer Random Castling variant without castling it seems from trying to get it to play in Winboard. So the question still remains, is there a variant name for standard chess without castling?

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but this can be re-posted under a new topic if anybody wants.
Fischer Random without castling was called "shuffle chess", it shouldn't have two names, so no castle chess seems like the proper name for normal chess without castling, regardless of what some GUI says. Well there may be a slight distinction in that shuffle chess normally allowed castling if the kings and rooks happened to be on their normal squares, but that's rather rare so no good reason for both variants to exist.
Not quite. This definition for Shuffle chess states there 2880 possible start positions, whereas FRC only has 960 start positions:

http://help.chessbase.com/playchess/8/E ... huffle.htm

I need some sort of agreed command from the GUI or chess protocol to the engine that says "castling not allowed" for any type of variant, including standard chess. I agree that no castle chess seems like a proper generic name. Unfortunately, the term "nocastle" has been reserved exclusively by Winboard for FRC/960 (or Shuffle chess) without castling. Therefore, it seems appropriate to request a Winboard modification/addition, or to create a new command perhaps called the "Kramnik" variant for generic no castling allowed - any and all variants. This should also be added to UCI protocol.

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Re: In No castling Chess what Engine would be the King or the best?

Post by lkaufman » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:15 pm

Nordlandia wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:53 pm
Perhaps St. Louis can arrange a crazyhouse event and invite the best online players.

Crazyhouse is on par 960 on lichess. Crazyhouse is not "silly"

Crazyhouse or bughouse community has always been big on the internet and OTB. I personally think some of the online variants can be introduced OTB.
My sense is that the St. Louis chess club is only interested in versions of chess that are close enough to normal chess for the same players to excel. 960 becomes normal chess once the kings have moved. Personally I rather like Crazyhouse, I wouldn't call it "silly", but it is only loosely related to normal chess, it is a very different game.
Komodo rules!

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