When will the chess programmers write an engine that plans ?

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zullil
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Re: When will the chess programmers write an engine that plans ?

Post by zullil » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:21 am

mclane wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:04 am
Rebel wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:19 am
mclane wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:22 pm
I mean that creates a plan and develops a main line that leads to something.
What you need to consider first is the question: WHY, do humans need a plan?

Answer, because their inability to flawlessly look ahead for 100 moves. If humans were able they would need no plan, not even chess knowledge and they would play for 99.99999% the best move.
mclane wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:22 pm
Not the usual engines we have today. That play chess within a Horizont of search depth.
Because chess essentially is a search game.

And now I have spoiled your thread :D
I don’t think so Ed.


I do think of we would have algorithms that create planning, this would also help the normal tree search based chess engines.
Because any chess programs comes in the situation that the tree search comes to an end.

Maybe we have to create or found a new subgroup.

Where Engines exist that do no tree search but only analysing of the position and creating a main line that was not founded the usual way.

Some say that the humans have to play this way because they lack hardware power in the brain.
So the programmers like to stay in the old paradigms. And continue stupid programs as they did in the last 50 years.

Ok. I can live with this.
But it is not what I am interested in.

I am interested in the idea to solve the problem without this huge search tree.

I am NOT interested to see what a chess engine CAN DO if it computes millions of positions. That is boring.

I want to see if it can analyse the position and come with a senseful idea or plan because it knows about chess.

We had human beings on the moon. But no chess engine that can play chess.
Ok we have Stockfish or komodo or others who play chess by going deep in the search tree. But when my blind grandma who can only play
Bingo gets hundred keys and tries them out, one of them will maybe open the door of the garage. That’s not understanding chess,
That’s using hardware progress to open the door.

The results of AI in computerchess are minimal.
The progress is minimal.

One could summarise it that chess engines have no idea what chess is and what the goal of chess is.

But they know how to reach 40 plies in 3 seconds.

Look I searched for this goal a long long time,
When you appeared in cologne Ed together with Jan and the hair dryer on stage , I was there.
I was there when thomas nitsche held his speech about computerchess progress in intelligent search strategy in 1986 .
Ossi and richard had a very weak mephisto cologne.
Levy tried with a motorola 68K Hardware in cologne. I think even mike johnson was there in cologne with motorola 68K Hardware at that Time.


At this time I still had hope and thought: yes there will be one day we will have intelligent chess engines.


But today I am watching the “progress” and I get the feeling that the development ends.


How about a program that, given this position, says "That's a clever one, Frank. The white-square bishop needs to block the rook, so the king can walk to d8."

I should add that it is painful watching Stockfish solve this mate-in-5.

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Re: When will the chess programmers write an engine that plans ?

Post by jp » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:33 am

zullil wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:21 am
mclane wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:04 am
I am interested in the idea to solve the problem without this huge search tree.

I am NOT interested to see what a chess engine CAN DO if it computes millions of positions. That is boring.

I want to see if it can analyse the position and come with a senseful idea or plan because it knows about chess.
rk6/p1r3p1/P3B1Kp/1p2B3/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1
How about a program that, given this position, says "That's a clever one, Frank. The white-square bishop needs to block the rook, so the king can walk to d8."

I should add that it is painful watching Stockfish solve this mate-in-5.
There's a way to try to get what mclane wants. Get someone to sponsor a prize for it.
e.g. a prize for a program that can achieve a set performance level with minimal computation and minimal memory.
Or to "understand" positions like above, where they're not told beforehand the set of test positions.

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Re: When will the chess programmers write an engine that plans ?

Post by mclane » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:39 am

When I had to play Bronstein with Chess System Tal in the Hague, he considered 30" on the first move.

Then he played his opening line, sacced a pawn and killed tal.

I asked him what he considered so much on the first move. He said he had to crawl through his memory to find the fitting sac for CSTal to eat that looks harmless enough the computer would eat it without understanding. This took 30 minutes.
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Re: When will the chess programmers write an engine that plans ?

Post by mclane » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:36 am

http://www.thorstenczub.de/bronstein.gif

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Re: When will the chess programmers write an engine that plans ?

Post by zullil » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:47 am

mclane wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:39 am
When I had to play Bronstein with Chess System Tal in the Hague, he considered 30" on the first move.

Then he played his opening line, sacced a pawn and killed tal.

I asked him what he considered so much on the first move. He said he had to crawl through his memory to find the fitting sac for CSTal to eat that looks harmless enough the computer would eat it without understanding. This took 30 minutes.
I would be very interested in seeing the development of program that approached chess in a "human way", by "making plans" that it could "explain" in ways that humans would understand. That would be a significant development in "artificial intelligence".

But, like even the best human players, it would be crushed by a modern alpha/beta or neural net engine.

So if the goal is winning chess games, forget about "making plans" and "understanding". :wink:

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Re: When will the chess programmers write an engine that plans ?

Post by Ras » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:05 pm

Over the board, the only thing that counts is the moves in a game. Given that engines play massively better than humans, it's not engines that fail to understand chess, it's humans. The human way of understanding of chess has become outclassed. Human planning is just a workaround for human lack of calculation, and a comparatively weak workaround at that.
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Re: When will the chess programmers write an engine that plans ?

Post by PK » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:43 pm

"Planning" engine would play boring, schematic, uninspired chess. How do I know? Because such a sad thing has been done to beautiful game of go, see https://www.gnu.org/software/gnugo/

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Re: When will the chess programmers write an engine that plans ?

Post by MonteCarlo » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:52 pm

mclane wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:06 am

To be honest all that has changed from the origins of chess until today is the hardware.
:?:

So, no software improvements at all? On equal hardware, I should expect Fritz 10 to hold its own with SF 11, or, sticking with the same engine across time, SF 5 to hold its own with SF 11?

It's almost as if this claim is not only testable, but already tested somewhere...maybe someone could construct a list that compares the strength of engines? :D

In all seriousness, the claim as it stands is clearly wrong. SF 11 could give big time odds on the same hardware to an old top engine and still win comfortably; not only has progress not been confined to hardware, the software improvements are huge.

I can only guess that maybe you meant something else and this was a bit of hyperbole?

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Re: When will the chess programmers write an engine that plans ?

Post by mclane » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:23 pm

There was progress. But in the wrong direction.
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Re: When will the chess programmers write an engine that plans ?

Post by JohnW » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:39 pm

What would be the point even if someone created one that plans like a human? If it's a good plan wouldn't the plan come to the same conclusion as an engine playing tactically? Like I just read in an old computer chess book about the chess computer "Belle", when it comes right down to it, chess is all tactical, except that humans can't process all the millions of moves in a given position. So the human play instinctively while the chess computer is actually seeing the moves and the reason for the humans instinctive move (assuming his instincts are correct).

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