Can somebody do simply this? By far the strongest engine!

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Laskos
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Can somebody do simply this? By far the strongest engine!

Post by Laskos » Sat May 16, 2020 9:10 am

I am unaware of a hybrid engine of the simplest kind, and I don't know what's the matter. Somebody better than me at coding can do this in an hour.
Simply: play using Lc0 first 35 moves and using SF after 35 moves to the end. On some RTX GPU and 4 to 32 core machine this combo will be by far the best engine.

Here are my results with RTX 2070 and 4 strong i7 cores:

200 games each match

Pure Lc0 net SV_3200 --- versus SF_11:
99/200

Combo Lc0 net SV_3200 to move 35, SF_11 after move 35 --- versus SF_11
123/200

An 85 Elo points improvement over pure Lc0.

As simple as that.
Lc0 is ridiculous in endgames, it always was and will probably improve only a little. In 200 games against Fritz 5.32, SF_11 scored 200/200, while Lc0 SV_3200 scored 193/200, Lc0 failing to convert in endgames 14 totally won positions even against Fritz 5.32 !!! It's ridiculous.

Are there volunteers to build such a combo engine in a matter of an hour?

pohl4711
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Re: Can somebody do simply this? By far the strongest engine!

Post by pohl4711 » Sat May 16, 2020 9:52 am

Laskos wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 9:10 am
I am unaware of a hybrid engine of the simplest kind, and I don't know what's the matter. Somebody better than me at coding can do this in an hour.
Simply: play using Lc0 first 35 moves and using SF after 35 moves to the end. On some RTX GPU and 4 to 32 core machine this combo will be by far the best engine.

Here are my results with RTX 2070 and 4 strong i7 cores:

200 games each match

Pure Lc0 net SV_3200 --- versus SF_11:
99/200

Combo Lc0 net SV_3200 to move 35, SF_11 after move 35 --- versus SF_11
123/200

An 85 Elo points improvement over pure Lc0.

As simple as that.
Lc0 is ridiculous in endgames, it always was and will probably improve only a little. In 200 games against Fritz 5.32, SF_11 scored 200/200, while Lc0 SV_3200 scored 193/200, Lc0 failing to convert in endgames 14 totally won positions even against Fritz 5.32 !!! It's ridiculous.

Are there volunteers to build such a combo engine in a matter of an hour?
This is, what you are looking for, isnt it?

Eman Chimera (previously known as Hybrid UCI) is a tool to run two or more UCI engines (one after another) to play the same game. Eman Chimera will switch to the appropriate engine based on move number of the current game being played

https://eman.zohosites.com/files/Eman%2 ... 0v1.10.zip

I know, that on playchess, some people use it, and SF takes over after 60 moves (35 moves seems a bit too early to me). So, it works in the FritzGUI. And what works in there, should run everywhere...

MMarco
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Re: Can somebody do simply this? By far the strongest engine!

Post by MMarco » Sat May 16, 2020 10:04 am

I came across this a while ago: https://weepingwillowben.github.io/inte ... idization/

The code is here: https://github.com/weepingwillowben/lc0 ... ag/v0.21.2

Maybe someone could try to compile it.

mehmet123
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Re: Can somebody do simply this? By far the strongest engine!

Post by mehmet123 » Sat May 16, 2020 10:35 am

In which right move should be Stockfish activated? 35, 50, 60 etc.

Maybe new tests shows the right move. So we can reach the most powerful engine much easier.

corres
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Re: Can somebody do simply this? By far the strongest engine!

Post by corres » Sat May 16, 2020 11:00 am

MMarco wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:04 am
I came across this a while ago: https://weepingwillowben.github.io/inte ... idization/
The code is here: https://github.com/weepingwillowben/lc0 ... ag/v0.21.2
Maybe someone could try to compile it.
The first link refer to an imagined Leela-Stockfish hybrid without code and binary,
the second link refer to the Leela ver.0.21.2 code (an old version of lc0).

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Laskos
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Re: Can somebody do simply this? By far the strongest engine!

Post by Laskos » Sat May 16, 2020 11:08 am

pohl4711 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 9:52 am
Laskos wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 9:10 am
I am unaware of a hybrid engine of the simplest kind, and I don't know what's the matter. Somebody better than me at coding can do this in an hour.
Simply: play using Lc0 first 35 moves and using SF after 35 moves to the end. On some RTX GPU and 4 to 32 core machine this combo will be by far the best engine.

Here are my results with RTX 2070 and 4 strong i7 cores:

200 games each match

Pure Lc0 net SV_3200 --- versus SF_11:
99/200

Combo Lc0 net SV_3200 to move 35, SF_11 after move 35 --- versus SF_11
123/200

An 85 Elo points improvement over pure Lc0.

As simple as that.
Lc0 is ridiculous in endgames, it always was and will probably improve only a little. In 200 games against Fritz 5.32, SF_11 scored 200/200, while Lc0 SV_3200 scored 193/200, Lc0 failing to convert in endgames 14 totally won positions even against Fritz 5.32 !!! It's ridiculous.

Are there volunteers to build such a combo engine in a matter of an hour?
This is, what you are looking for, isnt it?

Eman Chimera (previously known as Hybrid UCI) is a tool to run two or more UCI engines (one after another) to play the same game. Eman Chimera will switch to the appropriate engine based on move number of the current game being played

https://eman.zohosites.com/files/Eman%2 ... 0v1.10.zip

I know, that on playchess, some people use it, and SF takes over after 60 moves (35 moves seems a bit too early to me). So, it works in the FritzGUI. And what works in there, should run everywhere...
Thanks, that's it! Works in Cutechess-CLI, now performing a sanity check to see whether I set the options correctly and whether it doesn't have a large overhead.

pohl4711
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Re: Can somebody do simply this? By far the strongest engine!

Post by pohl4711 » Sat May 16, 2020 11:20 am

Laskos wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:08 am

Thanks, that's it! Works in Cutechess-CLI, now performing a sanity check to see whether I set the options correctly and whether it doesn't have a large overhead.
Please report here about your experiences of Chimera in cutechess-cli. Perhaps, I can do a testrun for my NN vs SF performance-testing in 2 weeks or so, using Chimera with lc0 and Komodo vs. Stockfish and see, if there is an Elo-gain compared to lc0 alone...

https://www.sp-cc.de/nn-vs-sf-testing.htm

Cumnor
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Re: Can somebody do simply this? By far the strongest engine!

Post by Cumnor » Sat May 16, 2020 11:43 am

Also Eman Chimera can change engine by number of pieces on the board not just move number.
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Laskos
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Re: Can somebody do simply this? By far the strongest engine!

Post by Laskos » Sat May 16, 2020 12:51 pm

pohl4711 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:20 am
Laskos wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:08 am

Thanks, that's it! Works in Cutechess-CLI, now performing a sanity check to see whether I set the options correctly and whether it doesn't have a large overhead.
Please report here about your experiences of Chimera in cutechess-cli. Perhaps, I can do a testrun for my NN vs SF performance-testing in 2 weeks or so, using Chimera with lc0 and Komodo vs. Stockfish and see, if there is an Elo-gain compared to lc0 alone...

https://www.sp-cc.de/nn-vs-sf-testing.htm
I cannot make it work as desired in Cutechess-CLI, it plays the whole game as Lc0 if it is the first engine to play, no switching at move 36 to SF. Will look into that later.

Dann Corbit
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Re: Can somebody do simply this? By far the strongest engine!

Post by Dann Corbit » Sat May 16, 2020 1:27 pm

Since LC0 uses almost exclusively GPU and very little CPU and Stockfish uses exclusively CPU, you can run them at the same time. The only losses are around two threads for SF and the memory for both programs is reduced.

If one has a much better score for a move, then play that.

I believe that Allie is an attempt to introduce Alpha Beta into NN programs, but the description makes it sound very primitive (maybe even mini-max).

LC-Fish or Stock-NN. Neither of them has a nice ring to it.

Have to work on the name. It should actually be pretty simple to do, since all the parts are already worked out, more or less.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

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