Is the Latvian losing?

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Werewolf
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Is the Latvian losing?

Post by Werewolf » Sat May 23, 2020 8:46 am

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 f5
3.Ne5

Can white force a win here?

agnolauga
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Re: Is the Latvian losing?

Post by agnolauga » Sat May 23, 2020 10:20 am

Sure white can force a win

Werewolf
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Re: Is the Latvian losing?

Post by Werewolf » Sat May 23, 2020 10:29 am

1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4!? (regular 4.d4 may be slightly better) ...fxe4 5. Nc3

and I wonder how many OTB players would find 5...Qf7! to stay in the game

agnolauga
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Re: Is the Latvian losing?

Post by agnolauga » Sat May 23, 2020 10:37 am

5... Qf7
6. Ne3
white wins

Werewolf
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Re: Is the Latvian losing?

Post by Werewolf » Sat May 23, 2020 1:43 pm

agnolauga wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:37 am
5... Qf7
6. Ne3
white wins
Let's put the ball in the back of the net:

1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7
6. Ne3 d5 7. Nexd5 c6 8. Ne3 Nf6

If that's your line above, your move.

bob
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Re: Is the Latvian losing?

Post by bob » Sat May 23, 2020 5:05 pm

I used to play this all the time (black obviously) when I needed a full point. It is filled with tactical opportunities. Is it winnable by black? Absolutely. Is it a forced win for white with perfect play? Probably, but not proven. But dangerous for white. Certainly. Dangerous for black as well.

Werewolf
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Re: Is the Latvian losing?

Post by Werewolf » Sat May 23, 2020 5:54 pm

bob wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:05 pm
I used to play this all the time (black obviously) when I needed a full point. It is filled with tactical opportunities. Is it winnable by black? Absolutely. Is it a forced win for white with perfect play? Probably, but not proven. But dangerous for white. Certainly. Dangerous for black as well.
Did you ever encounter 4.Nc4!?

agnolauga
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Re: Is the Latvian losing?

Post by agnolauga » Sat May 23, 2020 6:59 pm

1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7
6. Ne3 d5 7. Nexd5 c6 8. Ne3 Nf6 9. f3, but think the hey line is 6......c6 and not d5

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Ajedrecista
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Re: Is the Latvian Gambit losing?

Post by Ajedrecista » Sat May 23, 2020 7:01 pm

Hello:
Werewolf wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:54 pm
bob wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:05 pm
I used to play this all the time (black obviously) when I needed a full point. It is filled with tactical opportunities. Is it winnable by black? Absolutely. Is it a forced win for white with perfect play? Probably, but not proven. But dangerous for white. Certainly. Dangerous for black as well.
Did you ever encounter 4.Nc4!?
Some lines with 4. Nc4 are covered in The Encyclopedia of Chess Openings, Volume C, Fifth Edition (2006). Here are some of them up to move 8:

Code: Select all

Root:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7 {Note 12} 6. Ne3 {Note 13} c6 {Note 14} 7. Nxe4 d5 8. Ng5 {Note 15} Qf6

{Note 12}:
5. ... c6 6. Nxe4 Qe6 7. Qh5+! Kd8 8. Qe5 d5 [...] F. Destrebecq - G. Bravo, corr. 1980.
5. ... Qe6 6. Ne3 c6 7. d3 Bb4 8. dxe4 Qxe4 [...] Riegsecker - M. Gonsalves, corr. 1990.
5. ... Qg6 6. d3 Bb4 7. Bd2 Bxc3 8. Bxc3 Nf6 [...] Strautins - Castelli, corr. 1971.
5. ... Qg6 6. d3 Bb4 7. Bd2 Bxc3 8. Bxc3 d5 [...] Smyslov - Kamyshev, USSR 1945.
5. ... Qg6 6. d3 Bb4 7. dxe4 Qxe4+ 8. Ne3 Bxc3+ [...] Zude - K.J. Lutz, Germany 1994.

{Note 13}:
6. d4 Bb4 7. Be2 Nf6 8. O-O d5 [...] Nunn - Quest, The Hague 1994.
6. d4 Nf6 7. Bg5 Bb4 8. Ne5 Qe6 [...] Dubinsky - Chebotarev, USSR 1968.

{Note 14}:
6. ... Nf6 7. Bc4 Qg6 8. d3 Bb4 [...] Budovskis - Gunderam, corr. 1970.

{Note 15}:
8. Ng3 h5 [...] Carl - Pirrot, West Germany 1986.
I hope no typos.

I know that these variations are not bleeding edge news but it is always entertaining to search through old literature.

Smyslov's complete game is here:



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As a side note, asking if Latvian Gambit is losing is like asking if Budapest Gambit is losing or Damiano Defence is losing. They are questions without answers IMHO because we do not have the tools for answer them. We are not at a point like English draughts, for example. OTOH, I agree with Bob about playing double-edged openings in a must-win situation.

Regards from Spain.

Ajedrecista.

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Ovyron
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Re: Is the Latvian Gambit losing?

Post by Ovyron » Sun May 24, 2020 4:24 am

Ajedrecista wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 7:01 pm
As a side note, asking if Latvian Gambit is losing is like asking if Budapest Gambit is losing or Damiano Defence is losing. They are questions without answers IMHO because we do not have the tools for answer them.
We could answer that 1.g4 loses by force though, so I wonder what makes such gambits harder.

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