Leela Chess Zero Makes Mind-Blowing Piece Sacrifice!

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Ovyron
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Re: Leela Chess Zero Makes Mind-Blowing Piece Sacrifice!

Post by Ovyron » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:05 pm

jhellis3 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:31 am
Nope. My post had nothing to do with price btw.... Not sure what that strawman is all about, but it doesn't concern me so whatever...
Then your "power budget" needs a better definition. What's left? Cost of electricity? Because if we finally come with a system that makes everyone happy related to those costs, and 1 year from now a way for everyone to get free electricity is found and all it goes free, then all our efforts would go to waste.

If not, I'm having to build strawmen because what you're saying isn't clear.

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Ovyron
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Re: Leela Chess Zero Makes Mind-Blowing Piece Sacrifice!

Post by Ovyron » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:07 pm

Milos wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:57 am
Ovyron wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:41 am
I can wave my hand and say with 100% certainty that if the hardware is CPU then Stockfish wins and if the hardware is GPU then Leela wins.

And I didn't even need to do any testing.

This is the most possible fairness, so this was solved.

*Washes hands*
Do you ever do anything but trolling? Gee.
Gosh! You'll need more vitriol than that to fill Guenther's shoes.

Milos
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Re: Leela Chess Zero Makes Mind-Blowing Piece Sacrifice!

Post by Milos » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:40 pm

jhellis3 wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:56 pm
You just set equal power budget if you want "fairness." And I would say consumer level GPUs are normal hardware. Maybe not familiar to non-gamers, but still quite normal.
Power budget is also a deceiving metric because it depends on the technology node of hardware and not so much on how advanced the hardware itself is.
Basically since Intel is incapable of making a 7nm node, any CPU vs GPU comparison that includes Intel CPUs will be meaningless.
Also power efficiency for CPUs greatly increases for large multi-die CPUs like Threadripper. So by power budget a single 2880Ti is on par with 3990X while it would give an atrocious Leela ratio that all fanboys would scream about.

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Re: Leela Chess Zero Makes Mind-Blowing Piece Sacrifice!

Post by jhellis3 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:38 pm

Then your "power budget" needs a better definition.
No, it doesn't. And again you bring cost into the equation with electricity.... Another strawman.
If not, I'm having to build strawmen because what you're saying isn't clear.
My points are always clear enough for anyone who genuinely wants to understand, at least by my standard :).

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Ovyron
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Re: Leela Chess Zero Makes Mind-Blowing Piece Sacrifice!

Post by Ovyron » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:53 pm

jhellis3 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:38 pm
My points are always clear enough for anyone who genuinely wants to understand, at least by my standard :).
I genuinely want to understand. Specially if I'm wrong and you're right, I'd want to know, and why.

Do you have any interest in explaining what you mean with power budget?

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Re: Leela Chess Zero Makes Mind-Blowing Piece Sacrifice!

Post by jhellis3 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:58 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics)

Secondly, there is no right/wrong. Only standards of measures which may or may not be "fair" depending on one's perspective. I think you will find fairness itself to be of a rather subjective nature (at least within humans' own perception thereof), thus any attempt at the advocacy of the correctness of one's position is likely to be fruitless in the face of ego.
Last edited by jhellis3 on Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ovyron
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Re: Leela Chess Zero Makes Mind-Blowing Piece Sacrifice!

Post by Ovyron » Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:00 pm

So are you saying that a "fair" match depends on the energy used by the hardware used by the engines?

jhellis3
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Re: Leela Chess Zero Makes Mind-Blowing Piece Sacrifice!

Post by jhellis3 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:09 pm

Not exactly... I am saying I would consider such a match fair. If you need further clarification, see amended post above.

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Ovyron
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Re: Leela Chess Zero Makes Mind-Blowing Piece Sacrifice!

Post by Ovyron » Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:57 pm

Thanks for clarifying. So *to me* fairness that depends on how fast or slow human advance on hardware technology (CPU Vs. GPU) so they can produce the same output while using less power is not convincing.

I think we can agree that fairness is subjective. What I don't like is people claiming it can be objectively achieved, and even propose something like a ratio that goes to some exact number up to the nth decimal point, then claim it's not objectively fair until the ratio is 1.000000.

We can just compare A/B engines' performance and NNs performance with what we have (at 0 additional cost!) and not worry about fairness.

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Re: Leela Chess Zero Makes Mind-Blowing Piece Sacrifice!

Post by OliverBr » Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:46 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:41 am
I can wave my hand and say with 100% certainty that if the hardware is CPU then Stockfish wins and if the hardware is GPU then Leela wins.
My hardware has a decent CPU (i7-8850 6-core) and a decent GPU (GTX1080Ti) and this is bad news for Stockfish 11: Leela with white wins literally every match. On black there are a lot of draws.
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