Why is this Rook Sacrifice is SO GREAT ? ? ?

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zullil
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Re: Why is this Rook Sacrifice is SO GREAT ? ? ?

Post by zullil » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:56 am

jp wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:18 am
Rxg7+ looks like an obvious thing to consider.

Is it objectively the best move?
MikeGL is correct; many moves win. That said, Stockfish-dev with MultiPV = 2:

+7.23 1. Rxg7 Kxg7 2. Qg6+ Kf8 3. Qxh6+ Kg8 4. Qg5+ Kh8 5. Qf6+ Kg8 6. h6 Qb7 7. Qg6+ Kf8 8. h7 Qg7 9. Qh5 Ke7 10. Bh4+ Kd7 11. Bf6 Qxg4+ 12. Qxg4 Nxg4 13. h8=Q Rxh8 14. Bxh8 Ne7 15. Rxa3 Nf5 16. Ra7+ Kc6 17. Ra6+ Kd7 18. Bg7 d4 19. cxd4 Nge3 20. Bf8 Nd5 21. Kf2 Nxd4 22. Bc5 Nf5 23. Kf3 Nc7 24. Ra7 Kc6 25. Bf2 Nh6 26. Ra3 Kd7 27. Rd3+ Kc8 28. Bh4 Nb5 29. Bg5 Nf5 30. Kg4 Kb7 31. Kh5 Kc6 32. Bh4 Kc5 33. Bf2+ Kc4 34. Rd8 Nc3 35. Kg4 Nh6+ 36. Kg3 Nd5 37. Kh4 Nc3 38. Rc8+ Kd3 39. Re8 Nf5+ 40. Kg4 Ke4 41. Rxe6 Nd1 42. Bc5 Nc3 43. Rc6 (depth 50, 0:21:56)

+4.30 1. g5 Nf5 2. gxh6 Nxh6 3. Rb3 Qa7+ 4. Bf2 Qa4 5. Be3 Qc4 6. Rbxa3 Ne7 7. Bd4 Nef5 8. Ra4 Qc6 9. Ra6 Qc7 10. Qb5 Rg8 11. Ra7 Nxd4 12. Rxc7 Nxb5 13. Rc5 d4 14. Rxb5 dxc3 15. Rc5 Kh7 16. Rxc3 Rf8 17. Ra4 Nf5 18. Kf2 Rb8 19. Rc6 Rb2+ 20. Kf3 Rb3+ 21. Ke2 Kh6 22. Rxe6+ Kxh5 23. Kd2 Rb8 24. Rea6 Rb3 25. e6 Kg4 26. Re4 Rb2+ 27. Kd3 Rb3+ 28. Kc4 Rb7 29. Kc5 Kf3 30. Re1 Rb8 31. e7 Re8 32. Rae6 Kg4 33. R1e4 Ng3 34. Kd5 Nxe4 35. Kxe4 (depth 50, 0:21:56)

Chessqueen
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Re: Why is this Rook Sacrifice is SO GREAT ? ? ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:56 pm

MikeGL wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:51 am


At this point of the game, Lc0 is already too passive and is losing. Too late to save the game.
There are 8 or 9 winning moves together with Rxg7. This could be the reason why Rxg7 is not picked up quickly, because position of white has overwhelming advantage already, at least according to SF on my machine.

Case in point, this post of Vinvin here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74051
has the qualities of my point above where the position is almost equal or losing but was quickly turned around by just a single difficult move.

Real beautiful puzzles or combinations are those with losing or drawing position, then turned around by just a single powerful move.
So in my opinion, this R sacrifice is not that great at all.
This post is NOT about discussing hard or real puzzles or combinations, it is about how many chess engines first consider sacrificing a major piece for as little as a pawn even if the position is a winning position and winning in many ways. Like a boxer he could beat you slowly with many jabs but he could also find a fast knockout PUNCH that will not let you get up. Therefore, I believe that Stockfish has in its algorithm a special code or an IF Then statement that first look at any piece that can take regardless if it is only a mere pawn like in this case and further after the sacrifice within 15 to 20 moves deep if it come up with a positive score that will not let the other engine out of the knockout punch, then it will select that route first.

PS: So again how many other engines first consider to chase the opponent KING by sacrificing a major piece :?:

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Re: Why is this Rook Sacrifice is SO GREAT ? ? ?

Post by zullil » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:42 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:56 pm

PS: So again how many other engines first consider to chase the opponent KING by sacrificing a major piece :?:
Critter 1.6a 64-bit

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Ovyron
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Re: Why is this Rook Sacrifice is SO GREAT ? ? ?

Post by Ovyron » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:01 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:56 pm
I believe that Stockfish has in its algorithm a special code or an IF Then statement that first look at any piece that can take regardless if it is only a mere pawn like in this case and further after the sacrifice within 15 to 20 moves deep if it come up with a positive score that will not let the other engine out of the knockout punch, then it will select that route first.
You believe? It sounds like Stockfish's code was a black box that nobody could read and then we had to believe if it had something in it or not. You could certainly show this code that you mention if it existed.

It's like saying "I believe the bible mentions unicorns", it doesn't need to be a belief, it can be checked if the bible mentions them or not.

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Re: Why is this Rook Sacrifice is SO GREAT ? ? ?

Post by lkaufman » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:56 pm

This is not really a tactical problem, it's more an evaluation issue of whether it's better to have an army of passed pawns versus a knight than an extra Exchange. Also Stockfish does have something in its eval that causes it to go for quicker wins over slower ones. We also have such a feature in Komodo, but it currently doesn't kick in until 30 plies have gone by without "action", it's the "progress threshold". You could try a small value for it to see if that helps. We've made a change that will be in Komodo 14.1 that will make it try to win more quickly in all positions, like Stockfish does, though the details are different. But even with this change, it won't choose the shorter win unless they are at least close in merit, which depends on the eval.
Komodo rules!

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MikeB
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Re: Why is this Rook Sacrifice is SO GREAT ? ? ?

Post by MikeB » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:56 pm

zullil wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:43 am



I like the position - here's the soon to be released Honey - XIr3 given 20 seconds - other runs were slower, one under 10 seconds

Code: Select all

    #     #                                __         __    #     # ###             #####
    #     #  ####  #    # ###### #   #    /  \.-'''-./  \    #   #   #      #####  #     #
    #     # #    # ##   # #       # #     \    ~   ~    /     # #    #      #    #       #
    ####### #    # # #  # #####    #       |   o   o   |       #     #  ### #    #  #####
    #     # #    # #  # # #        #       \  .-'''-.  /      # #    #      #####        #
    #     # #    # #   ## #        #        '-\__Y__/-'      #   #   #      #   #  #     #
    #     #  ####  #    # ######   #           `---`        #     # ###     #    #  #####


    Honey 062720 by M. Byrne and scores of others...

s t 64
info string Hash Table: Windows Large Pages, 256 Mb
Confirmation: Threads set to 64
s h 32768
info string Hash Table: Windows Large Pages, 32768 Mb
Confirmation: Hash set to 32768 Mb
p f q3r2k/1R4p1/2n1p2p/3pP2P/5PP1/p1P1n1B1/R7/1Q4K1 w - - 1 41
g mt 61
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info 10 seconds
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info depth 33 seldepth 60 multipv 1 score cp 209 nodes 1296108164 nps 103829861 hashfull 261 tbhits 0 time 12483 pv b7g7 h8g7 b1g6 g7f8 g6h6 f8e7 h6g7 e7d8 g3h4 d8c8 g7f7 e8h8 f7e6 c8b7 h4f2 e3c4 e6d7 b7a6 d7d5 c6e5 d5a8 h8a8 f4e5 a8g8 a2e2 g8g4 g1f1 a6b5 e5e6 g4g7 e6e7 c4d6 e7e8q d6e8 e2e8 g7h7 e8a8 h7h5 a8a3 b5c4 f2d4 h5h2 a3a4 c4d3 a4a6 h2h5 a6e6 h5f5 f1g2 d3c4 e6c6 c4d3 c6a6 f5g5 g2f3 g5f5 f3g4 f5f8 a6g6 d3e4
info depth 34 seldepth 71 multipv 1 score cp 218 nodes 1408740320 nps 104196769 hashfull 281 tbhits 0 time 13520 pv b7g7 h8g7 b1g6 g7f8 g6h6 f8g8 h6g6 g8f8 g6f6 f8g8 h5h6 a8b7 f6g6 g8f8 h6h7 b7g7 g6h5 f8e7 g3h4 e7d7 h4f6 g7g4 h5g4 e3g4 h7h8q e8h8 f6h8 c6a7 a2a3 a7b5 a3b3 b5c7 h8f6 g4e3 g1f2 e3f5 b3b6 c7a8 b6a6 a8c7 a6a5 d7c8 f2g2 d5d4 c3d4 f5d4 g2g3 c7d5 a5a4 d4f5 g3g4 c8d7 a4a7 d7c6 a7a6 c6d7 g4g5 d5b4
info depth 35 seldepth 61 multipv 1 score cp 217 nodes 1419452579 nps 104218251 hashfull 284 tbhits 0 time 13620 pv b7g7 h8g7 b1g6 g7f8 g6h6 f8g8 h6g6 g8f8 g6f6 f8g8 h5h6 a8b7 f6g6 g8f8 h6h7 b7g7 g6h5 f8e7 g3h4 e7d7 h4f6 g7g4 h5g4 e3g4 h7h8q e8h8 f6h8 g4e3 a2a3 d5d4 c3d4 e3d5 g1f2 c6d4 a3a6 d4f5 f2f3 d5b4 a6a4 b4c2 h8f6 d7c6 f3g4 c6b5 a4a8 c2e3 g4f3 e3d5 a8c8 d5b4 c8h8 b5c4 f6h4 b4d3 h8c8 c4d5 h4f2 d3f2 c8d8 d5c5 f3f2
info depth 36 seldepth 62 multipv 1 score cp 218 nodes 1503035277 nps 104544430 hashfull 301 tbhits 0 time 14377 pv b7g7 h8g7 b1g6 g7f8 g6h6 f8e7 h6g7 e7d8 g3h4 d8c8 g7f7 e8h8 f7e6 c8b7 h4f2 e3c4 e6d7 b7a6 d7d5 c6e5 d5a8 h8a8 f4e5 a8g8 a2e2 g8g4 g1f1 a6b5 e5e6 g4g7 e6e7 c4d6 e7e8q d6e8 e2e8 g7h7 e8a8 h7h5 f2d4 h5h1 f1g2 h1e1 a8a3 b5c4 a3a8 c4d3 a8f8 e1e6 f8f3 d3c4 f3f6 e6e8 g2f3 c4d3 f3f2 e8e2 f2g3 e2e7 f6f3 d3c4 g3f2 e7e4
info depth 37 seldepth 62 multipv 1 score cp 218 nodes 1615264802 nps 104900948 hashfull 319 tbhits 0 time 15398 pv b7g7 h8g7 b1g6 g7f8 g6h6 f8e7 h6g7 e7d8 g3h4 d8c8 g7f7 e8h8 f7e6 c8b7 h4f2 e3c4 e6d7 b7a6 d7d5 c6e5 d5a8 h8a8 f4e5 a8g8 a2e2 g8g4 g1f1 g4g7 e5e6 a6b5 e6e7 c4d6 e7e8q d6e8 e2e8 g7h7 e8a8 h7h5 f2d4 h5h1 f1g2 h1e1 a8a3 b5c4 a3a8 c4d3 a8f8 e1e6 f8f3 d3c4 f3f6 e6e7 f6f8 e7e6 g2f2 c4d3 f8f3 d3c4 f3f6 e6e4 f6d6 e4e8
info depth 38 seldepth 76 multipv 1 score cp 235 nodes 1982814573 nps 106357054 hashfull 383 tbhits 0 time 18643 pv b7g7 h8g7 b1g6 g7f8 g6h6 f8g8 h6g6 g8f8 g6f6 f8g8 h5h6 a8b7 f6g6 g8f8 h6h7 b7g7 g6h5 f8e7 g3h4 e7d7 h4f6 g7g4 h5g4 e3g4 h7h8q e8h8 f6h8 g4e3 a2a3 d5d4 c3d4 e3d5 g1f2 c6d4 a3a6 d4f5 f2f3 d5b4 a6a4 b4c2 f3g4 d7c6 h8f6 c2e3 g4g5 e3d5 a4a6 c6d7 a6a8 d7c6 a8c8 c6b5 g5g4 f5e3 g4f3 e3f5 f6g5 f5d4 f3g4 b5b4 g5h4 d4e2 h4g3 b4b5 c8e8 d5c7 e8e7 b5c6
info depth 39 seldepth 85 multipv 1 score cp 236 nodes 2085580379 nps 106679303 hashfull 402 tbhits 0 time 19550 pv b7g7 h8g7 b1g6 g7f8 g6h6 f8g8 h6g5 g8f8 g5f6 f8g8 h5h6 a8b7 f6g6 g8f8 h6h7 b7g7 g6h5 f8e7 g3h4 e7d7 h4f6 g7g4 h5g4 e3g4 h7h8q e8h8 f6h8 g4e3 a2a3 d5d4 c3d4 e3d5 g1f2 d5f4 f2e3 f4d5 e3e4 d7e8 h8g7 e8e7 a3f3 e7d7 g7h6 d7e8 h6g5 c6a5 f3a3 a5c6 g5d2 e8e7 a3h3 e7f7 h3f3 f7e8 d2h6 e8d7 f3a3 d5c7 a3h3 c6e7 h6g5 e7f5 h3d3 d7c6 d3f3
info depth 40 seldepth 66 multipv 1 score cp 236 nodes 2099475649 nps 106702360 hashfull 405 tbhits 0 time 19676 pv b7g7 h8g7 b1g6 g7f8 g6h6 f8g8 h6g5 g8f8 g5f6 f8g8 h5h6 a8b7 f6g6 g8f8 h6h7 b7g7 g6h5 f8e7 g3h4 e7d7 h4f6 g7g4 h5g4 e3g4 h7h8q e8h8 f6h8 d5d4 a2a3 g4e3 c3d4 e3d5 g1f2 d5f4 f2e3 f4d5 e3e4 d7e8 h8g7 e8e7 a3f3 e7d7 g7h6 d7e8 h6g5 c6a5 f3a3 a5c6 g5d2 e8e7 a3h3 e7f7 h3f3 f7e8 d2h6 e8d7 f3f7 d7e8 f7h7 c6b4 h6d2 b4c6 d2g5 d5c3 e4d3 c3d5

info 20 seconds
info depth 40 seldepth 66 multipv 1 score cp 236 nodes 2136145498 nps 106796595 hashfull 408 tbhits 0 time 20002 pv b7g7 h8g7 b1g6 g7f8 g6h6 f8g8 h6g5 g8f8 g5f6 f8g8 h5h6 a8b7 f6g6 g8f8 h6h7 b7g7 g6h5 f8e7 g3h4 e7d7 h4f6 g7g4 h5g4 e3g4 h7h8q e8h8 f6h8 d5d4 a2a3 g4e3 c3d4 e3d5 g1f2 d5f4 f2e3 f4d5 e3e4 d7e8 h8g7 e8e7 a3f3 e7d7 g7h6 d7e8 h6g5 c6a5 f3a3 a5c6 g5d2 e8e7 a3h3 e7f7 h3f3 f7e8 d2h6 e8d7 f3f7 d7e8 f7h7 c6b4 h6d2 b4c6 d2g5 d5c3 e4d3 c3d5
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jp
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Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: Why is this Rook Sacrifice is SO GREAT ? ? ?

Post by jp » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:12 am

zullil wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:43 am
q3r2k/1R4p1/2n1p2p/3pP2P/5PP1/p1P1n1B1/R7/1Q4K1 w - - 1 41
Komodo 13.2, depth 28:
+1.25 1. Rb3
+1.07 1. Rxg7

This is the first depth at which Rxg7 appears in the first two PVs for K13.2.

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