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Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:55 am
by BrendanJNorman
carldaman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:11 am
Among the 2400 CCRL level engines, Romichess, Gaia, Gosu and Ares GB 1.1 are reputed to have more interesting styles, with some knowledge built-in. Perhaps, Tigran belongs in that group as well. :)
+1

Also there's...

-Gromit 2.0/2.13/2.20
- Phalanx XXII
- Trace
- WChess 1.06
- Queen 2.36
-Baron 1.6.1
- Rebel 6.0
- Comet A90
- Horizon 4.3/4.4
- LambChop 7.0
- Kiwi 0.6
- Terra 3.4

All of the above are 2300-2400ish and have beautiful playing styles for a reasonably strong human to train against.

In fact, I think to set up a beautiful Rosewood DGT board and play against these guys at LTC (simulating real tournament play)- combined with perhaps a nice glass of wine and some classical cello music - would indeed be one of life's pleasures. :D

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:04 am
by Ovyron
BrendanJNorman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:55 am
- Rebel 6.0
I think some Benjamin 1.0 setting could outdo Rebel 6.0. The idea would be to use its Master.eng setting to create a personality that disregards material to make it sacrifice it to keep the position open and tactical and after this is achieved switch to ProDeo 2.2 at full strength to finish the human off, while keeping an average of 2400 elo (which would be achieved by just sacrificing more material).

Some Anti-Dr.Wael Deeb setting :D

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:12 am
by BrendanJNorman
Ovyron wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:04 am
BrendanJNorman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:55 am
- Rebel 6.0
I think some Benjamin 1.0 setting could outdo Rebel 6.0. The idea would be to use its Master.eng setting to create a personality that disregards material to make it sacrifice it to keep the position open and tactical and after this is achieved switch to ProDeo 2.2 at full strength to finish the human off, while keeping an average of 2400 elo (which would be achieved by just sacrificing more material).

Some Anti-Dr.Wael Deeb setting :D
Actually, yes, it would be very easy to create a VERY aggressive Benjamin/ProDeo 2.2 personality which plays at 2400 level.

You shave off 300 Elo (engine Elo), but make it impossible for humans to survive.

In fact, I did this before in creating the Rodent II Henny personality years ago.

It was 2400ish but sometimes would cut the head off a 2800 like Frenzee 3.5.19 with sheer aggression and crazy sacrifices.

Talking about this stuff makes me want to make more time for this hobby....I really love it.

O well...in due time...in due time. :lol:

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:58 pm
by Dr.Wael Deeb
lkaufman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:38 am
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:22 am
Hi

Unfortunately I didn't manage to hold Tigran 2.4n x64 with the black pieces playing a variation of the Old Indian defense ....

Tigran is extremely territorial and quite aggressive which resulted is a series of minor blunders from my side accumulating to distorted position for black and losing the game ....

30... Bxf6 was a critical weak move that if played 30...gxf6 whould have saved the game,maybe :D

BTW,I listened to Larry and doubled the time control for the chess engines from 40 minutes + 20 seconds increment to 80 Minutes and kept the same increment ....

I will try to punish Tigran with the white pieces but no promises from my side ....

Enjoy

It is hard to believe that this engine could have almost the same rating as the Simplex engine you beat. This one plays like I would expect a 2400 rated engine to play, meaning that it doesn't make errors that are obvious to a human master without even having to think. It is my belief that in general the engines rated 2400 on the CCRL list, when running on a good computer like yours, should be evenly matched with humans well above 2400 FIDE, probably above 2500. If I'm right, it's no surprise that it would beat you, and Simplex must somehow be an aberration.
Extremely well said ....

Tigran is a 2400 chess playing monster and maybe doubling the time control did it merit too ....

With white pieces I strongly hesitated to play 1. e4 or 1. b3 then I went for the Larsen attack and it produced an epic battle which will end with the defeat of Tigran :mrgreen:

Just a several more moves to nail my victory in full glory ....

I will post the game later and beside the Stockfish NNUE I will high light some interesting moments of the game and why I played these moves in that particular position ....

Cheers,
Dr.D

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:06 pm
by Dr.Wael Deeb
Ovyron wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:42 am
carldaman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:11 am
Among the 2400 CCRL level engines, Romichess, Gaia, Gosu and Ares GB 1.1 are reputed to have more interesting styles, with some knowledge built-in. Perhaps, Tigran belongs in that group as well. :)
I'm waiting for Dr.Wael Deeb Vs. Romichess. It could be the engine that stops the run cold, and not specially because of strength (or she'd be higher on the list), but style alone. If not, the game where he beats Romi would be amazing!

Tell Romichess to prepare itself against the Larsen attack with 1. b3 :mrgreen:


I hope it happens without book, but learning on, imagine if on future tries Romi plays Dr.Wael Deeb's moves against him :lol:

I always give the engine an opening book till the 12th move usually
and will let it leran switched on ....


BTW,with all due respect,who punches his two hands on the table and says that the different chess engines doesn't have a style is either too naive or he doesn't understand the game of chess in it's essence or both ....

Cheers
Dr.D

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:08 pm
by Dr.Wael Deeb
carldaman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:11 am
Among the 2400 CCRL level engines, Romichess, Gaia, Gosu and Ares GB 1.1 are reputed to have more interesting styles, with some knowledge built-in. Perhaps, Tigran belongs in that group as well. :)
We'll see when I catch them cold handed on the chess board or vise versa :wink:

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:10 pm
by Dr.Wael Deeb
carldaman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:13 am
Yes, :mrgreen: Romi could then play the Old Indian, too!
Let it push 1.d4 and I will serve it a nice variation of the Old Indian Defense that will remember me for it for the rest of existence :mrgreen:

Cheers

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:25 pm
by Dr.Wael Deeb
carldaman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:18 am
lkaufman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:38 am
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:22 am
Hi

Unfortunately I didn't manage to hold Tigran 2.4n x64 with the black pieces playing a variation of the Old Indian defense ....

Tigran is extremely territorial and quite aggressive which resulted is a series of minor blunders from my side accumulating to distorted position for black and losing the game ....

30... Bxf6 was a critical weak move that if played 30...gxf6 whould have saved the game,maybe :D

BTW,I listened to Larry and doubled the time control for the chess engines from 40 minutes + 20 seconds increment to 80 Minutes and kept the same increment ....

I will try to punish Tigran with the white pieces but no promises from my side ....

Enjoy

It is hard to believe that this engine could have almost the same rating as the Simplex engine you beat. This one plays like I would expect a 2400 rated engine to play, meaning that it doesn't make errors that are obvious to a human master without even having to think. It is my belief that in general the engines rated 2400 on the CCRL list, when running on a good computer like yours, should be evenly matched with humans well above 2400 FIDE, probably above 2500. If I'm right, it's no surprise that it would beat you, and Simplex must somehow be an aberration.
Again, I think the lower you go down the rating list, engines will have vastly different strengths and weaknesses and the earned Elo is just an average figure of those. Not all 2400-level engines are cut from the same cloth, we can be sure of that.

I am sure that I'll discover a lot Elo distortion above and below the 2400 Elo level ....
Simplex was the first one to be exposed as an extremely overrated chess engine and in my opinion should go down at least 300 Elo in the rating list .....

Just as there are human players who are good anti-computer specialists, and others who are not, but who may otherwise be of similar strength, we also have engines that are more susceptible to anti-computer strategies and others that are less so.

Well,I don't consider myself to be an anti-computer specialist because of the simple fact that I don't use anti-computer techniques per say ....
Look at my game with simplex,it was an English opening that I almost know it's ins and outs perfectly and I outplayed it ....

IN my game with Tigran where I am finishing him right now with the Larsen attack,it's the same situation where I play an opening line which I am pretty much extremely familiar with ....

If I play a human master I will do the same thing over and over again ....

The so called anti-computer specialists play something like 1.e3 2.d4 3.c3 4.f4 for example trying to confuse the chess engine and closing the position early which is definitely not my cup of tea ....

Cheers
Dr.D


Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:28 pm
by Dr.Wael Deeb
Ovyron wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:28 am
Yes, that could also explain the "Elo collapse" observed the more you go up the list. It's because engines didn't get better Elo because they played better chess, but because they got increasingly better at exploiting engine's mistakes (mainly, the mistakes of the old version of the same engine.)
An excellent observation and most probably the main factor for this observed Elo distortion ....

Cheers

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:32 pm
by Dr.Wael Deeb
BrendanJNorman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:55 am
carldaman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:11 am
Among the 2400 CCRL level engines, Romichess, Gaia, Gosu and Ares GB 1.1 are reputed to have more interesting styles, with some knowledge built-in. Perhaps, Tigran belongs in that group as well. :)
+1

Also there's...

-Gromit 2.0/2.13/2.20
- Phalanx XXII
- Trace
- WChess 1.06
- Queen 2.36
-Baron 1.6.1
- Rebel 6.0
- Comet A90
- Horizon 4.3/4.4
- LambChop 7.0
- Kiwi 0.6
- Terra 3.4

All of the above are 2300-2400ish and have beautiful playing styles for a reasonably strong human to train against.

In fact, I think to set up a beautiful Rosewood DGT board and play against these guys at LTC (simulating real tournament play)- combined with perhaps a nice glass of wine and some classical cello music - would indeed be one of life's pleasures. :D
Bring them on :twisted:

I also use ROSEwood DGT board combined with the mind blowing compilations of Niccolo Paganini running on a pricey Panasonic home theater system :D

Cherrs,
Dr.D