TalkChess.com

Ovyron wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:04 pm

BrendanJNorman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:55 am - Rebel 6.0

I think some Benjamin 1.0 setting could outdo Rebel 6.0. The idea would be to use its Master.eng setting to create a personality that disregards material to make it sacrifice it to keep the position open and tactical and after this is achieved switch to ProDeo 2.2 at full strength to finish the human off, while keeping an average of 2400 elo (which would be achieved by just sacrificing more material).

Some Anti-Dr.Wael Deeb setting

A nice idea but then again I will steer the position via the opening theme to calm waters and let the engine go nuts

And even then if it sacrifice,will this sacrifice be correct

Cheers,
Dr.D

BrendanJNorman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:12 pm

Ovyron wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:04 pm

BrendanJNorman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:55 am - Rebel 6.0

I think some Benjamin 1.0 setting could outdo Rebel 6.0. The idea would be to use its Master.eng setting to create a personality that disregards material to make it sacrifice it to keep the position open and tactical and after this is achieved switch to ProDeo 2.2 at full strength to finish the human off, while keeping an average of 2400 elo (which would be achieved by just sacrificing more material).

Some Anti-Dr.Wael Deeb setting

Actually, yes, it would be very easy to create a VERY aggressive Benjamin/ProDeo 2.2 personality which plays at 2400 level.

You shave off 300 Elo (engine Elo), but make it impossible for humans to survive.

In fact, I did this before in creating the Rodent II Henny personality years ago.

It was 2400ish but sometimes would cut the head off a 2800 like Frenzee 3.5.19 with sheer aggression and crazy sacrifices.

Talking about this stuff makes me want to make more time for this hobby....I really love it.

O well...in due time...in due time.

I am starting to get worried

Ovyron wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:43 am Thanks for sharing! This idea is very interesting and much better than seeing how much material can be taken off the top engines in handicap matches.

I like this novel concept of "the human gets infinite time and takes as much time as they need" and I'm looking forward to how far you can go.

Hahahaha......."Infinite Time?' ...well sure that helps alot! giving myself infinite time in a match...the thought never crossed my mind! My "rating" given I am using infinite time in a match play situation vs a chess engine? Well..I dunno...
Talkchess again Tops Itself giving new meaning to "Handicap Matches" Ms ChessQueen and Mr Deeb....Leading the way!!

supersharp77 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:28 pm

Ovyron wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:43 am Thanks for sharing! This idea is very interesting and much better than seeing how much material can be taken off the top engines in handicap matches.

I like this novel concept of "the human gets infinite time and takes as much time as they need" and I'm looking forward to how far you can go.

Hahahaha......."Infinite Time?' ...well sure that helps alot! giving myself infinite time in a match...the thought never crossed my mind! My "rating" given I am using infinite time in a match play situation vs a chess engine? Well..I dunno...
Talkchess again Tops Itself giving new meaning to "Handicap Matches" Ms ChessQueen and Mr Deeb....Leading the way!!

According to what Dr. Deeb said, after the first opponent he doubled the computer's time so it would take close to the time he is taking. Since his hardware is presumably significantly faster (per core) than the CCRL reference hardware, even if he is taking 20 or 30% more time it's probably basically fair given the ratings are based on the reference hardware. So I wouldn't call these Handicap matches except for that first pairing.

lkaufman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:08 pm

supersharp77 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:28 pm

Ovyron wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:43 am Thanks for sharing! This idea is very interesting and much better than seeing how much material can be taken off the top engines in handicap matches.

I like this novel concept of "the human gets infinite time and takes as much time as they need" and I'm looking forward to how far you can go.

Hahahaha......."Infinite Time?' ...well sure that helps alot! giving myself infinite time in a match...the thought never crossed my mind! My "rating" given I am using infinite time in a match play situation vs a chess engine? Well..I dunno...
Talkchess again Tops Itself giving new meaning to "Handicap Matches" Ms ChessQueen and Mr Deeb....Leading the way!!

According to what Dr. Deeb said, after the first opponent he doubled the computer's time so it would take close to the time he is taking. Since his hardware is presumably significantly faster (per core) than the CCRL reference hardware, even if he is taking 20 or 30% more time it's probably basically fair given the ratings are based on the reference hardware. So I wouldn't call these Handicap matches except for that first pairing.

Quite correct ....

A few minutes ago Tigran resigned in a 70 move chess games spending 1 hours and 45 minutes while I spent around 2 hours and a half ....

I will post the games annotated by the latest Stockfish NNUE version along with several comments of mine regarding a specific critical moments of the game ....

Cheers

supersharp77 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:28 pm

Ovyron wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:43 am Thanks for sharing! This idea is very interesting and much better than seeing how much material can be taken off the top engines in handicap matches.

I like this novel concept of "the human gets infinite time and takes as much time as they need" and I'm looking forward to how far you can go.

Hahahaha......."Infinite Time?' ...well sure that helps alot! giving myself infinite time in a match...the thought never crossed my mind! My "rating" given I am using infinite time in a match play situation vs a chess engine? Well..I dunno...
Talkchess again Tops Itself giving new meaning to "Handicap Matches" Ms ChessQueen and Mr Deeb....Leading the way!!

Laugh all the amount you want but I dare you to show me one chess game you played against a 2400 chess engine using whatever time control you want ....

Of course no taking back moves and no sneaking on the chess engine thinking output ....

BTW,what do you have against Talkchess forum may I wonder

If you don't like it just gather your stuff and leave my friend,it's simple as that ....

Hi

One of the most creative games I played against a strong chess engine and a real nightmare ....

Tigran is extremely aggressive and in the particular game it started to push it's kingside pawns toward my king trying to storm the position form the early stages of the middle game ....

Here are some of my personal comments about some intersting moments of the game :

_8... e4 The first sign of the aggressive nature of the chess engine ....

_11... h5 12. f4 Again pushing his kingside pawns but I will not stand idle and I can also push my pawns ....

_13... g5 maintaining his aggressive approach ....

_15... g4 depriving the a white piece from occupying the f3 square,nasty

_17... Nf3+ Way too aggressive and the first weak move from the chess engine ....

_21. Nb4 I spent 8 minutes pondering this move and the main aim of it is to prevent the black bishop from positioning itself on the c6 square where he can cause real damage ....

_26. Nf4 a critical move which gave it's fruits later on ....

_33... Bg6 It was extremely hard to play against a pair of bishops even though white has a superior position ....

_40. Ra8 The rock behind the enemy lines was throne in the black's side but I had the feeling that Tigran was happy to lock the castle on the 8th horizontal line.Yes it gave me a headache but it was not fatal for my future intentions ....

_44. g4 Bxf4 the move that began the serious problems for Tigran penetrating the black kingside and eliminating one of the nasty bishops from the game ....

_47. Ke5 Again with the intention to advance in black's territory ....

_49. Rg3 two moves later and I doubled the white rocks on the 6th horizontal line and the rest of the game is just to exchange one of my rocks with the black one and the rest even though long and boring,it pretty much obvious

Cheers

[pgn][Event "Et Mortuus Est Rex"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2020.07.06"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dr.Deeb"]
[Black "Tigran 2.4n"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A01"]
[WhiteElo "2032"]
[BlackElo "2402"]
[Annotator "Stockfish NNUE run (halfkp-256x2-32-32) 30062"]
[PlyCount "145"]
[EventDate "2020.??.??"]

{A01: Nimzowitsch-Larsen Opening} 1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3 g6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Nf3
d6 6. Be2 f5 {last book move} 7. O-O Bd7 8. Nc3 e4 {Black threatens to win
material: e4xf3} 9. Ne1 Nf6 10. d4 O-O 11. Qd2 h5 (11... Qe7 12. Nc2 $11) 12.
f4 $14 exf3 13. Bxf3 g5 (13... Qe7 14. Nd3 $16) 14. g3 (14. Nd3 a5 $16) 14...
Bh6 (14... h4 15. Nd3 $16) 15. Bg2 (15. Nd3 Qe8 16. Nd5 Nxd5 17. Bxd5+ Kh7 $16)
15... g4 (15... Rc8 16. Nd5 $16) 16. Nd3 Nxd4 17. Nd5 (17. exd4 $4 {taking the
knight will lose the game} Bxd2 18. Bxb7 Rb8 19. Bd5+ Kh7 $19) (17. Bxb7 $6 {
is easily refuted} Bc6 18. Bxc6 Nxc6 $14) 17... Nf3+ $2 (17... Nxd5 $142 18.
Bxd5+ Ne6 $18) 18. Bxf3 gxf3 19. Nxf6+ Rxf6 20. Bxf6 Qxf6 21. Nb4 Re8 (21... c6
{does not help much} 22. Rad1 $18) 22. Rae1 c6 (22... Qe5 {does not solve
anything} 23. Rxf3 Bg5 24. Nd5 $18) 23. Rxf3 Qe6 (23... Kh7 $18 {there is
nothing else anyway}) 24. Nd3 Qe4 (24... Bf8 {cannot change destiny} 25. Nf4
Qf7 26. Qa5 $18) 25. Kf2 Rd8 26. Nf4 Be8 27. Qd4 Rd7 28. Qf6 Kh7 29. Ng2 Bg7
30. Qg5 (30. Qxf5+ $5 {makes it even easier for White} Qxf5 31. Rxf5 Bg6 $18)
30... d5 31. Qxf5+ Qxf5 32. Rxf5 dxc4 (32... Bg6 {doesn't change the outcome
of the game} 33. Rf4 $18) 33. bxc4 Bg6 34. Rf4 Bc3 35. Rf1 Be5 (35... Rd2+ {
is no salvation} 36. Kf3 Kg8 37. Rf2 Rxf2+ 38. Kxf2 $18) 36. Rf8 Bf7 37. Nf4
Bxc4 38. Rc1 Bf7 39. Rc2 Kg7 40. Ra8 (40. Rc8 {keeps an even firmer grip} Re7
$18) 40... b6 41. Rc8 (41. Kf3 {and White can already relax} c5 42. Rc8 Kh7 $18
) 41... c5 42. Kf3 Bc7 (42... Rb7 {does not win a prize} 43. e4 $18) 43. e4 Be5
44. g4 Bxf4 (44... hxg4+ {no good, but what else?} 45. Kxg4 Re7 $18) 45. Kxf4
Be6 46. Rc6 Rf7+ (46... Bxg4 {is not much help} 47. Rg2 Kf8 48. Rg3 $18) 47.
Ke5 Bxg4 48. Rg2 Kh7 (48... Re7+ {doesn't change anything anymore} 49. Kd5 Kf7
50. Rf2+ Ke8 51. Rff6 $18) 49. Rg3 Rd7 (49... c4 {otherwise it's curtains at
once} 50. Rxc4 b5 $18) 50. h3 Be2 51. Rgg6 Bc4 (51... Bd3 {is not the saving
move} 52. Rg5 Rd8 53. Rxh5+ Kg7 54. Rg5+ Kh7 55. Rg4 $18) 52. Rh6+ Kg7 53.
Rcg6+ Kf7 54. Kf5 Bxa2 (54... Rd3 {doesn't improve anything} 55. Rh7+ Kf8 56.
Rxa7 Rf3+ 57. Ke5 $18) 55. Rh7+ Ke8 56. Rxd7 Kxd7 57. Rg7+ Kc6 58. Rxa7 Bb1 59.
Rh7 c4 60. Rh6+ Kb7 (60... Kc5 {doesn't get the bull off the ice} 61. Kf4 c3
62. Rxh5+ Kb4 63. Ke3 $18) 61. Kf4 c3 62. Ke3 Bxe4 63. Rxh5 (63. Kxe4 $6 {
succumbs to} c2 64. Rh7+ Kc8 65. Rh8+ Kc7 66. Rh7+ Kc6 $11) 63... c2 (63... Kc6
{is still a small chance} 64. Re5 Bh7 $18) 64. Kd2 Kc6 65. Re5 Bd3 66. h4 Kd6
67. Re1 Bh7 68. h5 b5 69. h6 b4 70. Re8 b3 (70... Bg6 {hardly improves anything
} 71. Rg8 Bf5 72. Rg7 b3 73. Kc1 Be4 74. h7 Bxh7 75. Rxh7 Kc5 76. Rb7 Kc4 77.
Kb2 c1=Q+ 78. Kxc1 Kc3 79. Rb8 Kc4 80. Kd2 b2 81. Rxb2 Kd4 82. Rb1 Ke4 83. Rb5
Kd4 84. Ra5 Kc4 85. Ke3 Kb4 86. Rf5 Kc4 87. Re5 Kb3 88. Kd3 Kb4 89. Rd5 Kb3 90.
Rb5+ Ka4 91. Kc4 Ka3 92. Kc3 Ka2 93. Ra5+ Kb1 94. Ra4 Kc1 95. Ra1#) 71. Kc1 Kc5
(71... Bf5 {does not improve anything} 72. Re3 b2+ 73. Kxb2 Kd7 74. Rf3 Bh7 75.
Rf7+ Kd6 76. Rxh7 c1=R 77. Kxc1 Ke5 78. Ra7 Kf6 79. h7 Kf5 80. h8=Q Kf4 81. Re7
Kg4 82. Rf7 Kg3 83. Qh3+ Kxh3 84. Rg7 Kh2 85. Kd2 Kh3 86. Ke3 Kh4 87. Rg1 Kh3
88. Kf4 Kh2 89. Rg3 Kh1 90. Ke3 Kh2 91. Kf2 Kh1 92. Rh3#) 72. Re7 $18 Bg6 73.
h7 (73. h7 Kd6 74. h8=Q Kxe7 75. Qe5+ Kf7 76. Qg5 $18) 1-0

[/pgn]

Just a small note to the above posted game:

Even though Tigran is probably a real 2400 Elo engine,it's not immune to weak moves like 17... Nf3+ which sent the mighty black army to the downhill slowly but surely ....

Cheers,
Dr.D

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:16 am Just a small note to the above posted game:

Even though Tigran is probably a real 2400 Elo engine,it's not immune to weak moves like 17... Nf3+ which sent the mighty black army to the downhill slowly but surely ....

Cheers,
Dr.D

OK, but that's not like the blunder by Simplex; here it is a question of choosing to be down the Exchange rather than keep the material but have a terrible position. Probably a wrong choice, but both were probably losing, so it probably just means that the engine is not very materialistic.

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:25 pm

carldaman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:18 am

lkaufman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:38 am

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:22 am Hi

Unfortunately I didn't manage to hold Tigran 2.4n x64 with the black pieces playing a variation of the Old Indian defense ....

Tigran is extremely territorial and quite aggressive which resulted is a series of minor blunders from my side accumulating to distorted position for black and losing the game ....

30... Bxf6 was a critical weak move that if played 30...gxf6 whould have saved the game,maybe

BTW,I listened to Larry and doubled the time control for the chess engines from 40 minutes + 20 seconds increment to 80 Minutes and kept the same increment ....

I will try to punish Tigran with the white pieces but no promises from my side ....

Enjoy

[pgn][Event "Et Mortuus Est Rex"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2020.07.05"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Tigran 2.4n x64 q"]
[Black "Dr.Deeb"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A54"]
[WhiteElo "2402"]
[BlackElo "2032"]
[Annotator "Stockfish NNUE run (halfkp-256x2-32-32) 30062"]
[PlyCount "83"]
[EventDate "2020.??.??"]

{A54: Old Indian Defence with Nf3, but without e4} 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d6 3. c4
Nbd7 4. Nc3 e5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Be2 c6 8. O-O Re8 9. Qc2 Qc7 10. Rfd1 a6
11. Rac1 b6 {last book move} 12. b4 Bb7 13. Bh4 exd4 14. Nxd4 c5 15. bxc5 bxc5
16. Nf5 Bf8 17. Rb1 Rab8 18. Bg5 (18. Qd2 Re6 19. Qc2 Ree8 $16) 18... h6 {
Black threatens to win material: h6xg5} 19. Bf4 {The pressure on the backward
pawn d6 grows} Ne5 20. a4 Bc8 21. Rxb8 Qxb8 22. e4 (22. Bf1 Qb6 $14) 22... Qc7
23. Nd5 Nxd5 (23... Qd8 24. Nde3 $14) 24. cxd5 $14 Bxf5 (24... Bd7 25. Ne3 (25.
Bxa6 $143 Qa5 26. Bb5 Bxb5 27. axb5 Qxb5 $14) 25... Qa5 26. Ra1 $16) 25. exf5
$16 c4 26. Bxe5 Rxe5 27. Qxc4 Qxc4 28. Bxc4 Re4 (28... a5 $5 $14) 29. Rc1 $16
Be7 30. f6 (30. g3 $5 $16) 30... Bxf6 (30... gxf6 $5 31. Bxa6 Rxa4 $11) 31. Bd3
$14 {White threatens to win material: Bd3xe4} Re8 32. Bxa6 Re5 {Black
threatens to win material: Re5xd5} 33. Bc4 Re7 $2 (33... Bd8 $142 $5 $14 {
and Black has air to breath}) 34. a5 $18 Bd4 35. a6 Ba7 $2 (35... Rc7 36. Kf1
$18) 36. Bd3 (36. Bb5 {makes it even easier for White} f5 $18) 36... Bc5 $2 (
36... g5 $142 $18) 37. Kf1 g6 (37... Kf8 38. Bb5 Ra7 $18) 38. Rxc5 $1 {it's
all over} dxc5 39. d6 (39. Bb5 $5 {seems even better} Ra7 40. d6 Ra8 $18) 39...
Rd7 40. Ke2 Kf8 41. Bb5 Ra7 42. Kd3 1-0[/pgn]

It is hard to believe that this engine could have almost the same rating as the Simplex engine you beat. This one plays like I would expect a 2400 rated engine to play, meaning that it doesn't make errors that are obvious to a human master without even having to think. It is my belief that in general the engines rated 2400 on the CCRL list, when running on a good computer like yours, should be evenly matched with humans well above 2400 FIDE, probably above 2500. If I'm right, it's no surprise that it would beat you, and Simplex must somehow be an aberration.

Again, I think the lower you go down the rating list, engines will have vastly different strengths and weaknesses and the earned Elo is just an average figure of those. Not all 2400-level engines are cut from the same cloth, we can be sure of that.

I am sure that I'll discover a lot Elo distortion above and below the 2400 Elo level ....
Simplex was the first one to be exposed as an extremely overrated chess engine and in my opinion should go down at least 300 Elo in the rating list .....

Just as there are human players who are good anti-computer specialists, and others who are not, but who may otherwise be of similar strength, we also have engines that are more susceptible to anti-computer strategies and others that are less so.

Well,I don't consider myself to be an anti-computer specialist because of the simple fact that I don't use anti-computer techniques per say ....
Look at my game with simplex,it was an English opening that I almost know it's ins and outs perfectly and I outplayed it ....

IN my game with Tigran where I am finishing him right now with the Larsen attack,it's the same situation where I play an opening line which I am pretty much extremely familiar with ....

If I play a human master I will do the same thing over and over again ....

The so called anti-computer specialists play something like 1.e3 2.d4 3.c3 4.f4 for example trying to confuse the chess engine and closing the position early which is definitely not my cup of tea ....

Cheers
Dr.D

I used the term anti-computer specialist a little too broadly, as it applies to you. The e3/d4/f4 Stonewall attack approach is the truly old-school way. Your wins are the result of good sound chess and superior opening knowledge, and the ability to steer the game toward favorable positions. I wish I could play as accurately - usually all it takes is one bad blunder to spoil everything else, and engines can be merciless if you blunder.

Still, I hope you do find some time to go up against Nezh, a coffeehouse player of amazing strength and ability, one which is equally at home in closed positions. I've been testing and tuning Nezh for the last few years. The engine is private, so the only way to play it is by way of lichess.org. It is a nightmarish opponent. Happy hunting.