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Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:01 pm
by Dr.Wael Deeb
Ovyron wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:04 am
BrendanJNorman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:55 am
- Rebel 6.0
I think some Benjamin 1.0 setting could outdo Rebel 6.0. The idea would be to use its Master.eng setting to create a personality that disregards material to make it sacrifice it to keep the position open and tactical and after this is achieved switch to ProDeo 2.2 at full strength to finish the human off, while keeping an average of 2400 elo (which would be achieved by just sacrificing more material).

Some Anti-Dr.Wael Deeb setting :D
A nice idea but then again I will steer the position via the opening theme to calm waters and let the engine go nuts :mrgreen:

And even then if it sacrifice,will this sacrifice be correct :!: :?:

Cheers,
Dr.D

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:02 pm
by Dr.Wael Deeb
BrendanJNorman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:12 am
Ovyron wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:04 am
BrendanJNorman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:55 am
- Rebel 6.0
I think some Benjamin 1.0 setting could outdo Rebel 6.0. The idea would be to use its Master.eng setting to create a personality that disregards material to make it sacrifice it to keep the position open and tactical and after this is achieved switch to ProDeo 2.2 at full strength to finish the human off, while keeping an average of 2400 elo (which would be achieved by just sacrificing more material).

Some Anti-Dr.Wael Deeb setting :D
Actually, yes, it would be very easy to create a VERY aggressive Benjamin/ProDeo 2.2 personality which plays at 2400 level.

You shave off 300 Elo (engine Elo), but make it impossible for humans to survive.

In fact, I did this before in creating the Rodent II Henny personality years ago.

It was 2400ish but sometimes would cut the head off a 2800 like Frenzee 3.5.19 with sheer aggression and crazy sacrifices.

Talking about this stuff makes me want to make more time for this hobby....I really love it.

O well...in due time...in due time. :lol:
I am starting to get worried :?

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:28 pm
by supersharp77
Ovyron wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:43 pm
Thanks for sharing! This idea is very interesting and much better than seeing how much material can be taken off the top engines in handicap matches.

I like this novel concept of "the human gets infinite time and takes as much time as they need" and I'm looking forward to how far you can go.
Hahahaha......."Infinite Time?' ...well sure that helps alot! giving myself infinite time in a match...the thought never crossed my mind! My "rating" given I am using infinite time in a match play situation vs a chess engine? Well..I dunno... :D
Talkchess again Tops Itself giving new meaning to "Handicap Matches" Ms ChessQueen and Mr Deeb....Leading the way!! :wink: :lol:

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:08 pm
by lkaufman
supersharp77 wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:28 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:43 pm
Thanks for sharing! This idea is very interesting and much better than seeing how much material can be taken off the top engines in handicap matches.

I like this novel concept of "the human gets infinite time and takes as much time as they need" and I'm looking forward to how far you can go.
Hahahaha......."Infinite Time?' ...well sure that helps alot! giving myself infinite time in a match...the thought never crossed my mind! My "rating" given I am using infinite time in a match play situation vs a chess engine? Well..I dunno... :D
Talkchess again Tops Itself giving new meaning to "Handicap Matches" Ms ChessQueen and Mr Deeb....Leading the way!! :wink: :lol:
According to what Dr. Deeb said, after the first opponent he doubled the computer's time so it would take close to the time he is taking. Since his hardware is presumably significantly faster (per core) than the CCRL reference hardware, even if he is taking 20 or 30% more time it's probably basically fair given the ratings are based on the reference hardware. So I wouldn't call these Handicap matches except for that first pairing.

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:22 pm
by Dr.Wael Deeb
lkaufman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:08 pm
supersharp77 wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:28 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:43 pm
Thanks for sharing! This idea is very interesting and much better than seeing how much material can be taken off the top engines in handicap matches.

I like this novel concept of "the human gets infinite time and takes as much time as they need" and I'm looking forward to how far you can go.
Hahahaha......."Infinite Time?' ...well sure that helps alot! giving myself infinite time in a match...the thought never crossed my mind! My "rating" given I am using infinite time in a match play situation vs a chess engine? Well..I dunno... :D
Talkchess again Tops Itself giving new meaning to "Handicap Matches" Ms ChessQueen and Mr Deeb....Leading the way!! :wink: :lol:
According to what Dr. Deeb said, after the first opponent he doubled the computer's time so it would take close to the time he is taking. Since his hardware is presumably significantly faster (per core) than the CCRL reference hardware, even if he is taking 20 or 30% more time it's probably basically fair given the ratings are based on the reference hardware. So I wouldn't call these Handicap matches except for that first pairing.
Quite correct ....

A few minutes ago Tigran resigned in a 70 move chess games spending 1 hours and 45 minutes while I spent around 2 hours and a half ....

I will post the games annotated by the latest Stockfish NNUE version along with several comments of mine regarding a specific critical moments of the game ....

Cheers

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:27 pm
by Dr.Wael Deeb
supersharp77 wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:28 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:43 pm
Thanks for sharing! This idea is very interesting and much better than seeing how much material can be taken off the top engines in handicap matches.

I like this novel concept of "the human gets infinite time and takes as much time as they need" and I'm looking forward to how far you can go.
Hahahaha......."Infinite Time?' ...well sure that helps alot! giving myself infinite time in a match...the thought never crossed my mind! My "rating" given I am using infinite time in a match play situation vs a chess engine? Well..I dunno... :D
Talkchess again Tops Itself giving new meaning to "Handicap Matches" Ms ChessQueen and Mr Deeb....Leading the way!! :wink: :lol:
Laugh all the amount you want but I dare you to show me one chess game you played against a 2400 chess engine using whatever time control you want ....

Of course no taking back moves and no sneaking on the chess engine thinking output ....

BTW,what do you have against Talkchess forum may I wonder :!: :?:

If you don't like it just gather your stuff and leave my friend,it's simple as that ....

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:14 pm
by Dr.Wael Deeb
Hi

One of the most creative games I played against a strong chess engine and a real nightmare ....

Tigran is extremely aggressive and in the particular game it started to push it's kingside pawns toward my king trying to storm the position form the early stages of the middle game ....

Here are some of my personal comments about some intersting moments of the game :

_8... e4 The first sign of the aggressive nature of the chess engine ....

_11... h5 12. f4 Again pushing his kingside pawns but I will not stand idle and I can also push my pawns ....

_13... g5 maintaining his aggressive approach ....

_15... g4 depriving the a white piece from occupying the f3 square,nasty :evil:

_17... Nf3+ Way too aggressive and the first weak move from the chess engine ....

_21. Nb4 I spent 8 minutes pondering this move and the main aim of it is to prevent the black bishop from positioning itself on the c6 square where he can cause real damage ....

_26. Nf4 a critical move which gave it's fruits later on ....

_33... Bg6 It was extremely hard to play against a pair of bishops even though white has a superior position ....

_40. Ra8 The rock behind the enemy lines was throne in the black's side but I had the feeling that Tigran was happy to lock the castle on the 8th horizontal line.Yes it gave me a headache but it was not fatal for my future intentions ....

_44. g4 Bxf4 the move that began the serious problems for Tigran penetrating the black kingside and eliminating one of the nasty bishops from the game ....

_47. Ke5 Again with the intention to advance in black's territory ....

_49. Rg3 two moves later and I doubled the white rocks on the 6th horizontal line and the rest of the game is just to exchange one of my rocks with the black one and the rest even though long and boring,it pretty much obvious :mrgreen:

Cheers


Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:16 pm
by Dr.Wael Deeb
Just a small note to the above posted game:

Even though Tigran is probably a real 2400 Elo engine,it's not immune to weak moves like 17... Nf3+ which sent the mighty black army to the downhill slowly but surely ....

Cheers,
Dr.D

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:12 pm
by lkaufman
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:16 pm
Just a small note to the above posted game:

Even though Tigran is probably a real 2400 Elo engine,it's not immune to weak moves like 17... Nf3+ which sent the mighty black army to the downhill slowly but surely ....

Cheers,
Dr.D
OK, but that's not like the blunder by Simplex; here it is a question of choosing to be down the Exchange rather than keep the material but have a terrible position. Probably a wrong choice, but both were probably losing, so it probably just means that the engine is not very materialistic.

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:00 am
by carldaman
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:25 pm
carldaman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:18 am
lkaufman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:38 am
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:22 am
Hi

Unfortunately I didn't manage to hold Tigran 2.4n x64 with the black pieces playing a variation of the Old Indian defense ....

Tigran is extremely territorial and quite aggressive which resulted is a series of minor blunders from my side accumulating to distorted position for black and losing the game ....

30... Bxf6 was a critical weak move that if played 30...gxf6 whould have saved the game,maybe :D

BTW,I listened to Larry and doubled the time control for the chess engines from 40 minutes + 20 seconds increment to 80 Minutes and kept the same increment ....

I will try to punish Tigran with the white pieces but no promises from my side ....

Enjoy

It is hard to believe that this engine could have almost the same rating as the Simplex engine you beat. This one plays like I would expect a 2400 rated engine to play, meaning that it doesn't make errors that are obvious to a human master without even having to think. It is my belief that in general the engines rated 2400 on the CCRL list, when running on a good computer like yours, should be evenly matched with humans well above 2400 FIDE, probably above 2500. If I'm right, it's no surprise that it would beat you, and Simplex must somehow be an aberration.
Again, I think the lower you go down the rating list, engines will have vastly different strengths and weaknesses and the earned Elo is just an average figure of those. Not all 2400-level engines are cut from the same cloth, we can be sure of that.

I am sure that I'll discover a lot Elo distortion above and below the 2400 Elo level ....
Simplex was the first one to be exposed as an extremely overrated chess engine and in my opinion should go down at least 300 Elo in the rating list .....

Just as there are human players who are good anti-computer specialists, and others who are not, but who may otherwise be of similar strength, we also have engines that are more susceptible to anti-computer strategies and others that are less so.

Well,I don't consider myself to be an anti-computer specialist because of the simple fact that I don't use anti-computer techniques per say ....
Look at my game with simplex,it was an English opening that I almost know it's ins and outs perfectly and I outplayed it ....

IN my game with Tigran where I am finishing him right now with the Larsen attack,it's the same situation where I play an opening line which I am pretty much extremely familiar with ....

If I play a human master I will do the same thing over and over again ....

The so called anti-computer specialists play something like 1.e3 2.d4 3.c3 4.f4 for example trying to confuse the chess engine and closing the position early which is definitely not my cup of tea ....

Cheers
Dr.D

I used the term anti-computer specialist a little too broadly, as it applies to you. The e3/d4/f4 Stonewall attack approach is the truly old-school way. Your wins are the result of good sound chess and superior opening knowledge, and the ability to steer the game toward favorable positions. I wish I could play as accurately - usually all it takes is one bad blunder to spoil everything else, and engines can be merciless if you blunder.

Still, I hope you do find some time to go up against Nezh, a coffeehouse player of amazing strength and ability, one which is equally at home in closed positions. I've been testing and tuning Nezh for the last few years. The engine is private, so the only way to play it is by way of lichess.org. It is a nightmarish opponent. Happy hunting. :)