Et Mortuus Est Rex

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BrendanJNorman
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Full name: Brendan J Norman

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Post by BrendanJNorman » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:03 am

carldaman wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:00 am
Still, I hope you do find some time to go up against Nezh, a coffeehouse player of amazing strength and ability, one which is equally at home in closed positions.
IMO Nezh is too strong for the average player, Carl.

Plays beautifully, yes, but too strong to give the average player - even strong player- a chance.

A 2744 liChess blitz rating places Nezh in the range of this guy: https://lichess.org/@/Zhigalko_Sergei - Sergei Zhigalko
European Blitz Champion (2017) and packing a huge 2695 FIDE rating.

I think it'd be cool to limit the nodes per second (if possible) so as to introduce some occasional human-like mistakes, whilst maintaining the great playing style.

Can you do this with Nezh? Or a similar weakening?

Otherwise, you get the "whatever I do, it's hopeless coz I'm playing an engine" feeling.

I've been experimenting with such weakening recently with some success, will create a liChess bot when I have time.

Hopefully, a human-like opponent limited to about 2250-2400 strength on liChess.

So, approximately my level. :lol:

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Location: Amman,Jordan

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:32 am

lkaufman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:12 pm
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:16 pm
Just a small note to the above posted game:

Even though Tigran is probably a real 2400 Elo engine,it's not immune to weak moves like 17... Nf3+ which sent the mighty black army to the downhill slowly but surely ....

Cheers,
Dr.D
OK, but that's not like the blunder by Simplex; here it is a question of choosing to be down the Exchange rather than keep the material but have a terrible position. Probably a wrong choice, but both were probably losing, so it probably just means that the engine is not very materialistic.
Yes,it tried to to create a material imbalance situation to confuse the opponent,maybe but it burned out at the end ....

Note that this is only one game with a one blunder and frankly speaking I don't want to play this monster ever again as it drains your mental energy by keeping on attacking and counter attacking and if it wasn't for this little blunder I was surely to lose the game ....

Cheers,
Dr.D

P.S Next opponent is Patzer 3.80 ....
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Location: Amman,Jordan

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:37 am

carldaman wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:00 am
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:25 pm
carldaman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:18 am
lkaufman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:38 am
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:22 am
Hi

Unfortunately I didn't manage to hold Tigran 2.4n x64 with the black pieces playing a variation of the Old Indian defense ....

Tigran is extremely territorial and quite aggressive which resulted is a series of minor blunders from my side accumulating to distorted position for black and losing the game ....

30... Bxf6 was a critical weak move that if played 30...gxf6 whould have saved the game,maybe :D

BTW,I listened to Larry and doubled the time control for the chess engines from 40 minutes + 20 seconds increment to 80 Minutes and kept the same increment ....

I will try to punish Tigran with the white pieces but no promises from my side ....

Enjoy

It is hard to believe that this engine could have almost the same rating as the Simplex engine you beat. This one plays like I would expect a 2400 rated engine to play, meaning that it doesn't make errors that are obvious to a human master without even having to think. It is my belief that in general the engines rated 2400 on the CCRL list, when running on a good computer like yours, should be evenly matched with humans well above 2400 FIDE, probably above 2500. If I'm right, it's no surprise that it would beat you, and Simplex must somehow be an aberration.
Again, I think the lower you go down the rating list, engines will have vastly different strengths and weaknesses and the earned Elo is just an average figure of those. Not all 2400-level engines are cut from the same cloth, we can be sure of that.

I am sure that I'll discover a lot Elo distortion above and below the 2400 Elo level ....
Simplex was the first one to be exposed as an extremely overrated chess engine and in my opinion should go down at least 300 Elo in the rating list .....

Just as there are human players who are good anti-computer specialists, and others who are not, but who may otherwise be of similar strength, we also have engines that are more susceptible to anti-computer strategies and others that are less so.

Well,I don't consider myself to be an anti-computer specialist because of the simple fact that I don't use anti-computer techniques per say ....
Look at my game with simplex,it was an English opening that I almost know it's ins and outs perfectly and I outplayed it ....

IN my game with Tigran where I am finishing him right now with the Larsen attack,it's the same situation where I play an opening line which I am pretty much extremely familiar with ....

If I play a human master I will do the same thing over and over again ....

The so called anti-computer specialists play something like 1.e3 2.d4 3.c3 4.f4 for example trying to confuse the chess engine and closing the position early which is definitely not my cup of tea ....

Cheers
Dr.D

I used the term anti-computer specialist a little too broadly, as it applies to you. The e3/d4/f4 Stonewall attack approach is the truly old-school way. Your wins are the result of good sound chess and superior opening knowledge, and the ability to steer the game toward favorable positions. I wish I could play as accurately - usually all it takes is one bad blunder to spoil everything else, and engines can be merciless if you blunder.

Still, I hope you do find some time to go up against Nezh, a coffeehouse player of amazing strength and ability, one which is equally at home in closed positions. I've been testing and tuning Nezh for the last few years. The engine is private, so the only way to play it is by way of lichess.org. It is a nightmarish opponent. Happy hunting. :)
Hi,

No problem at at all buddy as I fully understood what you meant :D

Let me just grind through a bunch of CCRL opponents and I will meet Mr.Nezh with pleasure ....

Any chance to release it as a UCI chess engine to the public ?

Cheers,
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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Ovyron
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Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Post by Ovyron » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:51 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:12 am
In fact, I did this before in creating the Rodent II Henny personality years ago.
Nice! I just remembered that I did this for Pro Deo, with the Drunken Master personality back in 2011...

Pro Deo 16 Drunken Master Download (to use install RebelUCI.exe)

AFAIK it's the only engine that plays 1.b3 by itself on the opening position, so it's already emulating Dr.Wael Deeb! :lol:

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:47 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:51 am
BrendanJNorman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:12 am
In fact, I did this before in creating the Rodent II Henny personality years ago.
Nice! I just remembered that I did this for Pro Deo, with the Drunken Master personality back in 2011...

Pro Deo 16 Drunken Master Download (to use install RebelUCI.exe)

AFAIK it's the only engine that plays 1.b3 by itself on the opening position, so it's already emulating Dr.Wael Deeb! :lol:
An imposture from the past :mrgreen:
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

supersharp77
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Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Post by supersharp77 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:02 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:27 pm
supersharp77 wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:28 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:43 pm
Thanks for sharing! This idea is very interesting and much better than seeing how much material can be taken off the top engines in handicap matches.

I like this novel concept of "the human gets infinite time and takes as much time as they need" and I'm looking forward to how far you can go.
Hahahaha......."Infinite Time?' ...well sure that helps alot! giving myself infinite time in a match...the thought never crossed my mind! My "rating" given I am using infinite time in a match play situation vs a chess engine? Well..I dunno... :D
Talkchess again Tops Itself giving new meaning to "Handicap Matches" Ms ChessQueen and Mr Deeb....Leading the way!! :wink: :lol:
Laugh all the amount you want but I dare you to show me one chess game you played against a 2400 chess engine using whatever time control you want ....

Of course no taking back moves and no sneaking on the chess engine thinking output ....

BTW,what do you have against Talkchess forum may I wonder :!: :?:

If you don't like it just gather your stuff and leave my friend,it's simple as that ....
Hahahaha.......Sure my friend.....show you some of my games? No Problems..I just don't believe in the concept of "Handicap Matches" then posting flawed results such as this...my chess is 100% straight up ...All The time!..who knows what "conditions" you have created for yourself..(Only You)....The poor machine has to go along with it...(no choices)
Perhaps after I get done testing LC0 and the like my battles with the chess machines will continue...and that time is coming..very..very...SOON.... :) :wink:

carldaman
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Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Post by carldaman » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:58 pm

BrendanJNorman wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:03 am
carldaman wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:00 am
Still, I hope you do find some time to go up against Nezh, a coffeehouse player of amazing strength and ability, one which is equally at home in closed positions.
IMO Nezh is too strong for the average player, Carl.

Plays beautifully, yes, but too strong to give the average player - even strong player- a chance.

A 2744 liChess blitz rating places Nezh in the range of this guy: https://lichess.org/@/Zhigalko_Sergei - Sergei Zhigalko
European Blitz Champion (2017) and packing a huge 2695 FIDE rating.

I think it'd be cool to limit the nodes per second (if possible) so as to introduce some occasional human-like mistakes, whilst maintaining the great playing style.

Can you do this with Nezh? Or a similar weakening?

Otherwise, you get the "whatever I do, it's hopeless coz I'm playing an engine" feeling.

I've been experimenting with such weakening recently with some success, will create a liChess bot when I have time.

Hopefully, a human-like opponent limited to about 2250-2400 strength on liChess.

So, approximately my level. :lol:
This version of CyberNezh is a bit on the crazy side, with many unsound and semi-sound sacs, but very hard to refute.
A reasonably strong human does stand a puncher's chance. :)

EDIT: More relevant may be the rapid rating where it's only 2400+ (lichess rating, not CCRL).

lkaufman
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Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Post by lkaufman » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:54 pm

carldaman wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:58 pm
BrendanJNorman wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:03 am
carldaman wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:00 am
Still, I hope you do find some time to go up against Nezh, a coffeehouse player of amazing strength and ability, one which is equally at home in closed positions.
IMO Nezh is too strong for the average player, Carl.

Plays beautifully, yes, but too strong to give the average player - even strong player- a chance.

A 2744 liChess blitz rating places Nezh in the range of this guy: https://lichess.org/@/Zhigalko_Sergei - Sergei Zhigalko
European Blitz Champion (2017) and packing a huge 2695 FIDE rating.

I think it'd be cool to limit the nodes per second (if possible) so as to introduce some occasional human-like mistakes, whilst maintaining the great playing style.

Can you do this with Nezh? Or a similar weakening?

Otherwise, you get the "whatever I do, it's hopeless coz I'm playing an engine" feeling.

I've been experimenting with such weakening recently with some success, will create a liChess bot when I have time.

Hopefully, a human-like opponent limited to about 2250-2400 strength on liChess.

So, approximately my level. :lol:
This version of CyberNezh is a bit on the crazy side, with many unsound and semi-sound sacs, but very hard to refute.
A reasonably strong human does stand a puncher's chance. :)

EDIT: More relevant may be the rapid rating where it's only 2400+ (lichess rating, not CCRL).
Are there lichess ratings for many top engines (sorry, I'm not familiar with lichess)? Do they seem realistic relative to human ratings? On chess.com, the engines all have absurdly low ratings, apparently because almost everyone who plays them is too low for them to gain any points for a win, and probably some people do cheat against them (rationalizing that the engine won't mind!) as we see some enormous rating upsets. Are the lichess engine ratings somehow free of this problem?
Komodo rules!

carldaman
Posts: 1985
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Post by carldaman » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:01 am

The longer the TC the more underrated the engines become at lichess, or so it seems. At rapid, they could be underrated by several hundreds of points relative to the CCRL list. Some of that may depend on what kind of opponents they are up against, human or other engines. Humans usually fare very poorly at blitz and bullet.

I look at it at just being a different rating pool, and a mixed one at that.

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Ovyron
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Re: Et Mortuus Est Rex

Post by Ovyron » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:28 am

lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:54 pm
and probably some people do cheat against them (rationalizing that the engine won't mind!)
Lichess's policy doesn't allow cheating in rated games, if carldaman suspects a human cheated in their game against CyberNezh he's supposed to report them so they're banned. After the banning the ratings are adjusted so it's as if the games against cheaters didn't happen at all.

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