TCEC is testing wrong and this is why ........................

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Chessqueen
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Full name: George Pichard

TCEC is testing wrong and this is why ........................

Post by Chessqueen » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:42 pm

I watched all week from Monday thru Today for 4 hours daily TCEC Live and I noticed, and I am sure that most of you noticed this Too, that they are favoring the NN engines. Please let me explain my point of view first. The NN Engines are great learning opening by themselves whereas the AB engines have to have Openings to do well, since they NOT not benefit as much as NN engines from playing thousands of games without Opening from move 1 ?? From the other side NN Engines are not that great with ending without using a 5 men, 6 men, or 7 men. I truly believe that if they pit a NN engine Versus an AB engine without opening, NONE should NOT have endgame table as well to make it fair for both engines. I know that NN engines could also train to play great without endgame table, but they do NOT train them knowing that they always use endgame table, at the Moment I believe that AB engine like Komodo and Stockfish are better than NN engines if both do NOT use endgame tables.That is the reason why Alliestein came ahead of Stockfish by playing games from move 1 ?? and benefited at the endgame by using 7 men endgame table.

PS: The only way to make it fair is that if they pit a NN engines Versus an AB engines without opening, they should NOT use endgame table as well.

Chessqueen
Posts: 1459
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: TCEC is testing wrong and this is why ........................

Post by Chessqueen » Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:56 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:42 pm
I watched all week from Monday thru Today for 4 hours daily TCEC Live and I noticed, and I am sure that most of you noticed this Too, that they are favoring the NN engines. Please let me explain my point of view first. The NN Engines are great learning opening by themselves whereas the AB engines have to have Openings to do well, since they NOT not benefit as much as NN engines from playing thousands of games without Opening from move 1 ?? From the other side NN Engines are not that great with ending without using a 5 men, 6 men, or 7 men. I truly believe that if they pit a NN engine Versus an AB engine without opening, NONE should NOT have endgame table as well to make it fair for both engines. I know that NN engines could also train to play great without endgame table, but they do NOT train them knowing that they always use endgame table, at the Moment I believe that AB engine like Komodo and Stockfish are better than NN engines if both do NOT use endgame tables.That is the reason why Alliestein came ahead of Stockfish by playing games from move 1 ?? and benefited at the endgame by using 7 men endgame table.

PS: The only way to make it fair is that if they pit a NN engines Versus an AB engines without opening, they should NOT use endgame table as well.
I was wondering what would happen if TCEC match these engines one more time for 56 games with Opening, but without endgame table, this would be the reverse of NOT using Opening. LCZero, Alliestein, StockfiNN, Stockfish, Komodo, and Stoofvlees. My bet goes for Stockfish. What engine would be your Pick ?

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Ovyron
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Re: TCEC is testing wrong and this is why ........................

Post by Ovyron » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:17 am

That using endgame tables or not makes almost no difference whatsoever, specially if none of your opponents have them either.

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M ANSARI
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Re: TCEC is testing wrong and this is why ........................

Post by M ANSARI » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:21 am

TCEC is not really testing the strongest engine but is looking for an exciting and entertaining event. Most people on this forum realize that. I enjoy watching TCEC as many of the openings are designed to get an engine out of its comfort zone. Of course at times it favors one engine over the other. I can actually say that if you get to choose the openings you can create a set of openings that will guarantee a win of one engine over the other. Until one engine is dramatically superior to another, this will continue to be the case. Just enjoy TCEC for what it is and let the engine strength be tested by others who use a much higher number of games.

marsell
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Re: TCEC is testing wrong and this is why ........................

Post by marsell » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:42 am

M ANSARI wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:21 am
TCEC is not really testing the strongest engine but is looking for an exciting and entertaining event. Most people on this forum realize that. I enjoy watching TCEC as many of the openings are designed to get an engine out of its comfort zone. Of course at times it favors one engine over the other. I can actually say that if you get to choose the openings you can create a set of openings that will guarantee a win of one engine over the other. Until one engine is dramatically superior to another, this will continue to be the case. Just enjoy TCEC for what it is and let the engine strength be tested by others who use a much higher number of games.
+1

You're right, Tcec has nothing to do with testing
That should be clear to everyone after so many seasons.

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Location: Amman,Jordan

Re: TCEC is testing wrong and this is why ........................

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:56 am

Unfortunately I don't have time to TCEC so I can't really give any comments here ......
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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