What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

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Chessqueen
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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Chessqueen » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:19 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:02 pm
I see. I find really strange that the lowest FIDE rating that can be achieved is 1000 and starting people get higher than that already. My students stop dropping pieces after a few games and have no problem getting to a higher level than Stockfish's depth 1, it's surprising 800 elo players at chess.com keep dropping pieces and never improve beyond depth 1's strength. Maybe mentoring is necessary and what I observe isn't typical (because nobody is there to explain to them why they lost.)
Here is my Other game where I decided to take the Bishop on Move 28... instead of Taking the Rook with Check, the first I lost on time, because I was looking for a way to beat Komodo with my Rook for Komodo's Bishop plus 3 extra pawns advantage. BAsed on your statement that you gave a Queen Plus a Knight to one of your beginner student, you seems to be around 2100 thru 2175. Anyway you should try to play Komodo13.3 or 14 at Depth 5 with the same time control 10 + 5 sec increment and let us know how you did.


Uri Blass
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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:37 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:07 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:02 pm
I see. I find really strange that the lowest FIDE rating that can be achieved is 1000 and starting people get higher than that already. My students stop dropping pieces after a few games and have no problem getting to a higher level than Stockfish's depth 1, it's surprising 800 elo players at chess.com keep dropping pieces and never improve beyond depth 1's strength. Maybe mentoring is necessary and what I observe isn't typical (because nobody is there to explain to them why they lost.)
Are your students adults, teenagers, or kids? I know few adults with ratings like 800 (these would have to be USCF or online ratings since FIDE doesn't go that low); when I was actively teaching lots of elementary school kids a decade ago an 800 rating was usually typical of maybe the third best kid in the school, someone who needed about queen and knight odds from me for a fair game. What is the lowest FIDE-rated student you have who has actually beaten Stockfish at depth 1, and what age?
I believe
even for most adults it is not easy not to drop pieces.

Unfortunately I know many adults who do mistakes and drop pieces.

In most cases they are not interested in learning chess but it is because people are more interested in things that they are better in them.

I doubt if it is possible to teach most adults who are new to the game to beat me with odds of Queen and 2 rooks in less than a week.

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Ovyron
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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Ovyron » Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:03 am

lkaufman wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:07 pm
Are your students adults, teenagers, or kids?
Of all ages, from 4 years old to +60.
lkaufman wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:07 pm
What is the lowest FIDE-rated student you have who has actually beaten Stockfish at depth 1, and what age?
None of them have FIDE-ratings, the ratings I were talking about are just guesses by me, and since I've taught them chess from scratch (they come as a blank state), I see their evolution from lowest possible elo to the point they'd beat Stockfish depth 1.

So I thought Stockfish depth 1 was really weak, but maybe people can improve really fast when mentored, and the students were hundreds of points stronger than I thought. After the current world situation this has come to a halt, but if I ever train someone from scratch again I'll take actual notes, my impression is that training someone to beat Stockfish depth 1 is very easy, threat recognition is all it takes, but all I have is anecdotal evidence from memory.

Uri Blass
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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Uri Blass » Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:28 am

Ovyron wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:03 am
lkaufman wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:07 pm
Are your students adults, teenagers, or kids?
Of all ages, from 4 years old to +60.
lkaufman wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:07 pm
What is the lowest FIDE-rated student you have who has actually beaten Stockfish at depth 1, and what age?
None of them have FIDE-ratings, the ratings I were talking about are just guesses by me, and since I've taught them chess from scratch (they come as a blank state), I see their evolution from lowest possible elo to the point they'd beat Stockfish depth 1.

So I thought Stockfish depth 1 was really weak, but maybe people can improve really fast when mentored, and the students were hundreds of points stronger than I thought. After the current world situation this has come to a halt, but if I ever train someone from scratch again I'll take actual notes, my impression is that training someone to beat Stockfish depth 1 is very easy, threat recognition is all it takes, but all I have is anecdotal evidence from memory.
How much time did it take you to teach them to beat stockfish depth 1?

What is your method?
Did you play with them when you gave them instructions?
Did you give them tactical exercises?

Edit: another question:
What is the percentage of students that started with you and did not quit chess before beating stockfish depth 1.

I ask it because it is possible that you teach only strong students and the weak students who fail to follow your instructions do not want to learn with you.

Milos
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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Milos » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:16 am

lkaufman wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:29 pm
1. For Depth 1 ply, the choice of engine doesn't matter much, I usually quote 1200 as a rough guide for Komodo 1 ply, but I could be off 200 elo either way, this is not carefully measured. But for players with ratings below 1000, we have to weaken it further to give them a chance, so I think it's at least in the right ballpark..
You don't seems to have a clue. SF depth 1 is above 1500. It's not really depth 1, it has full qs included. Try playing open games against it and you'd see.

Milos
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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Milos » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:32 am

Ovyron wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:03 am
None of them have FIDE-ratings, the ratings I were talking about are just guesses by me, and since I've taught them chess from scratch (they come as a blank state), I see their evolution from lowest possible elo to the point they'd beat Stockfish depth 1.

So I thought Stockfish depth 1 was really weak, but maybe people can improve really fast when mentored, and the students were hundreds of points stronger than I thought. After the current world situation this has come to a halt, but if I ever train someone from scratch again I'll take actual notes, my impression is that training someone to beat Stockfish depth 1 is very easy, threat recognition is all it takes, but all I have is anecdotal evidence from memory.
Considering you have an extremely long history of unsubstantiated claims I wouldn't trust you even when claiming the grass is green. I simply call BS on your claims about weak SF at depth 1 and I'm pretty sure none of your "students" can really beat it. As a matter of fact I doubt you even know how to set up GUI to play SF at depth 1. You are probably playing nodes=1.

Uri Blass
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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Uri Blass » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:49 am

Milos wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:16 am
lkaufman wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:29 pm
1. For Depth 1 ply, the choice of engine doesn't matter much, I usually quote 1200 as a rough guide for Komodo 1 ply, but I could be off 200 elo either way, this is not carefully measured. But for players with ratings below 1000, we have to weaken it further to give them a chance, so I think it's at least in the right ballpark..
You don't seems to have a clue. SF depth 1 is above 1500. It's not really depth 1, it has full qs included. Try playing open games against it and you'd see.
Rating is dependent on the time control.

Milos
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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Milos » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:56 am

Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:49 am
Milos wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:16 am
lkaufman wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:29 pm
1. For Depth 1 ply, the choice of engine doesn't matter much, I usually quote 1200 as a rough guide for Komodo 1 ply, but I could be off 200 elo either way, this is not carefully measured. But for players with ratings below 1000, we have to weaken it further to give them a chance, so I think it's at least in the right ballpark..
You don't seems to have a clue. SF depth 1 is above 1500. It's not really depth 1, it has full qs included. Try playing open games against it and you'd see.
Rating is dependent on the time control.
How can fixed depth rating depend on TC? If you mean human time control, I am not even aware of a GUI where you can have fixed depth for one opponent and time w/wo increment for another. So how do you even think that could be measured, with clock on human side playing OTB against an engine with operator? How realistic is something like that?
In absolute terms ofc you are right. Not even Carlsen or any other human would be able to avoid loss against SF depth 1 at for example 10s a game.
Still that is human rating, not engine rating. Simply all humans have rating against engines well below 0 Elo (actually unmeasurably low Elo) at 1s per game. And below 1000Elo at 10s a game.

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Ovyron
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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Ovyron » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:47 am

Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:28 am
How much time did it take you to teach them to beat stockfish depth 1?
About a week.
Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:28 am
What is your method?
Nothing special: Teach them the rules. Play some games against them, just to make sure they know the rules. In the games explain their blunders and give them the option to continue playing or to revert them. Give them general advice about piece development and how to think after the opponent has made moves that make threats. Make punishing moves against wrong moves that they play. Play more games with them and make them play against each other.
Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:28 am
Did you play with them when you gave them instructions?
Yes.
Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:28 am
Did you give them tactical exercises?
No.
Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:28 am
What is the percentage of students that started with you and did not quit chess before beating stockfish depth 1.
Let's say that 95% quit chess before reaching that level, and most of the remaining ones quit chess afterwards. Chess is not very popular around here, the sad thing is seeing great talent being unused (one of my students had a mate in 2 against me that she missed, and then she quit so that was the last game of her life...)
Last edited by Ovyron on Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ovyron
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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Ovyron » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:50 am

Milos wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:32 am
As a matter of fact I doubt you even know how to set up GUI to play SF at depth 1. You are probably playing nodes=1.
Are we even in the same world? Around here Stockfish 8 Depth 1 gets its queen trapped with ease:



If that's FIDE 1500 level then I don't know what FIDE ELO is. I can beat Stockfish depth 1 100% of the time...

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