What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

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lkaufman
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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by lkaufman » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:59 am

lkaufman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:52 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:41 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:48 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:38 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:51 am
Unfortunately almost nobody want to learn chess 1 hour per day.

The people that I taught chess wanted to learn chess only 1 hour per week but I will be surprised if one hour per day is enough to beat stockfish depth 1 after a week.
You are correct Uri, it is NOT enough. Chess is harder than what people think, but there are gifted child, but even if they are 1 week is NOT enough. Talking from my own experience I started to take lesson from an online IM instructor and after 10 months of him guiding me and telling me to get a different chess book every months and testing me on what I should have learned from those books, and providing me with guided tactical positions to solves every week as I progress, different endgames books, strategies books and testing my comprehension of those books every other week, and giving different positions and asking me to take my time and answer what would be the best move to play and explain the reason why to him, anyway after 10 long months all that I have manage to accomplish is to draw versus Komodo 13.3 at Depth 4 in time control of 10 + 5 minutes, sometime I feel like I have wasted my money, but my trainer was very happy that I drew versus Komodo at depth 4. He simply put it this way you started training with me and you were a low 1300 to 1350 at your best and you have learned so much in 10 months which is what he expected me, since I am NOT a genius or gifted person like so many. All that I have to say is that there is so much to learn in chess, that the more you learn the more there is to keep on learning. I will be happy when I could beat Komodo 14 at Depth 5 Time control 10+5 sec increment and it might be harder to do because with every version of Komodo the harder it becomes :roll:
Larry what depth do you think that Jorge Sammour should play versus Komodo 13.3 at time control of 10 + 5 Sec increment, Depth 6 or Depth 7 ?


Well, since Alex Lenderman was a close match (maybe a slight underdog) vs. Komodo Skill 21 at 3' + 2", and Skill 21 is basically depth 8 with some randomization and limited book depth, he would probably be favored slightly against depth 7 with full opening book on one thread. Jorge is about a class below Lenderman in rating, but 5x the time limit should offset this, so I would bet on Jorge vs depth 7 but I would bet on Komodo using depth 8 (with a good opening book in each case).
Before I test it against Jorge Sammour I would like you to play at least 1 game at TC 10 + 5 sec increment with depth 6 and one with depth 7
I'm playing in the U.S. Senior tournament of state champions this weekend (online on chess.com) so I won't have time until at least Monday, but I would like to do this. But please keep in mind that although I might have been close to the same level as Jorge nearly twenty years ago, I'm a lot weaker than he is now, the difference might be more like 2 plies depth than 1.
I played four games tonite (10' + 5") vs. crippled Komodo, two vs. Skill 19 (6 ply slightly randomized) and two vs. Skill 20 (7 ply) alternating colors. Since you didn't have Komodo use an opening book vs. Jorge, I turned off the book too. Much to my surprise, I won all four games. But it's too easy to win with White at these depths without a book, Komodo as Black just gets a lost game in the opening. But when I have Black, Komodo gets a nearly equal opening so I would say those wins by me are legitimate. Maybe tomorrow I'll try again this time with the opening book on (the skill levels limit it to a reasonable depth, but it's a pretty high depth for those skill levels so in general I should try to avoid theory with the book on). I think it makes quite a big difference whether you do this with or without an opening book, especially if the human plays White. I think for you to beat Jorge with Komodo at this time control Komodo will need at least 8 ply (Skill 21) plus a good opening book, and even then maybe a draw is the most likely result. Perhaps I have slightly overestimated the strength at these low fixed depths. Also playing in and preparing for the Seniors state champions tournament probably has helped me recover at least some of my former playing strength.
Komodo rules!

Chessqueen
Posts: 1032
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:15 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:59 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:52 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:41 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:48 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:38 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:51 am
Unfortunately almost nobody want to learn chess 1 hour per day.

The people that I taught chess wanted to learn chess only 1 hour per week but I will be surprised if one hour per day is enough to beat stockfish depth 1 after a week.
You are correct Uri, it is NOT enough. Chess is harder than what people think, but there are gifted child, but even if they are 1 week is NOT enough. Talking from my own experience I started to take lesson from an online IM instructor and after 10 months of him guiding me and telling me to get a different chess book every months and testing me on what I should have learned from those books, and providing me with guided tactical positions to solves every week as I progress, different endgames books, strategies books and testing my comprehension of those books every other week, and giving different positions and asking me to take my time and answer what would be the best move to play and explain the reason why to him, anyway after 10 long months all that I have manage to accomplish is to draw versus Komodo 13.3 at Depth 4 in time control of 10 + 5 minutes, sometime I feel like I have wasted my money, but my trainer was very happy that I drew versus Komodo at depth 4. He simply put it this way you started training with me and you were a low 1300 to 1350 at your best and you have learned so much in 10 months which is what he expected me, since I am NOT a genius or gifted person like so many. All that I have to say is that there is so much to learn in chess, that the more you learn the more there is to keep on learning. I will be happy when I could beat Komodo 14 at Depth 5 Time control 10+5 sec increment and it might be harder to do because with every version of Komodo the harder it becomes :roll:
Larry what depth do you think that Jorge Sammour should play versus Komodo 13.3 at time control of 10 + 5 Sec increment, Depth 6 or Depth 7 ?


Well, since Alex Lenderman was a close match (maybe a slight underdog) vs. Komodo Skill 21 at 3' + 2", and Skill 21 is basically depth 8 with some randomization and limited book depth, he would probably be favored slightly against depth 7 with full opening book on one thread. Jorge is about a class below Lenderman in rating, but 5x the time limit should offset this, so I would bet on Jorge vs depth 7 but I would bet on Komodo using depth 8 (with a good opening book in each case).
Before I test it against Jorge Sammour I would like you to play at least 1 game at TC 10 + 5 sec increment with depth 6 and one with depth 7
I'm playing in the U.S. Senior tournament of state champions this weekend (online on chess.com) so I won't have time until at least Monday, but I would like to do this. But please keep in mind that although I might have been close to the same level as Jorge nearly twenty years ago, I'm a lot weaker than he is now, the difference might be more like 2 plies depth than 1.
I played four games tonite (10' + 5") vs. crippled Komodo, two vs. Skill 19 (6 ply slightly randomized) and two vs. Skill 20 (7 ply) alternating colors. Since you didn't have Komodo use an opening book vs. Jorge, I turned off the book too. Much to my surprise, I won all four games. But it's too easy to win with White at these depths without a book, Komodo as Black just gets a lost game in the opening. But when I have Black, Komodo gets a nearly equal opening so I would say those wins by me are legitimate. Maybe tomorrow I'll try again this time with the opening book on (the skill levels limit it to a reasonable depth, but it's a pretty high depth for those skill levels so in general I should try to avoid theory with the book on). I think it makes quite a big difference whether you do this with or without an opening book, especially if the human plays White. I think for you to beat Jorge with Komodo at this time control Komodo will need at least 8 ply (Skill 21) plus a good opening book, and even then maybe a draw is the most likely result. Perhaps I have slightly overestimated the strength at these low fixed depths. Also playing in and preparing for the Seniors state champions tournament probably has helped me recover at least some of my former playing strength.
Larry i do NOT believe that the opening will make a 20 Elo difference, just play with Skill = 20 and simply tae Komodo out of the opening like1. h3 the clemenz Opening which is NOT known too good with any engine :mrgreen:

lkaufman
Posts: 4286
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by lkaufman » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:34 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:15 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:59 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:52 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:41 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:48 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:38 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:51 am
Unfortunately almost nobody want to learn chess 1 hour per day.

The people that I taught chess wanted to learn chess only 1 hour per week but I will be surprised if one hour per day is enough to beat stockfish depth 1 after a week.
You are correct Uri, it is NOT enough. Chess is harder than what people think, but there are gifted child, but even if they are 1 week is NOT enough. Talking from my own experience I started to take lesson from an online IM instructor and after 10 months of him guiding me and telling me to get a different chess book every months and testing me on what I should have learned from those books, and providing me with guided tactical positions to solves every week as I progress, different endgames books, strategies books and testing my comprehension of those books every other week, and giving different positions and asking me to take my time and answer what would be the best move to play and explain the reason why to him, anyway after 10 long months all that I have manage to accomplish is to draw versus Komodo 13.3 at Depth 4 in time control of 10 + 5 minutes, sometime I feel like I have wasted my money, but my trainer was very happy that I drew versus Komodo at depth 4. He simply put it this way you started training with me and you were a low 1300 to 1350 at your best and you have learned so much in 10 months which is what he expected me, since I am NOT a genius or gifted person like so many. All that I have to say is that there is so much to learn in chess, that the more you learn the more there is to keep on learning. I will be happy when I could beat Komodo 14 at Depth 5 Time control 10+5 sec increment and it might be harder to do because with every version of Komodo the harder it becomes :roll:
Larry what depth do you think that Jorge Sammour should play versus Komodo 13.3 at time control of 10 + 5 Sec increment, Depth 6 or Depth 7 ?


Well, since Alex Lenderman was a close match (maybe a slight underdog) vs. Komodo Skill 21 at 3' + 2", and Skill 21 is basically depth 8 with some randomization and limited book depth, he would probably be favored slightly against depth 7 with full opening book on one thread. Jorge is about a class below Lenderman in rating, but 5x the time limit should offset this, so I would bet on Jorge vs depth 7 but I would bet on Komodo using depth 8 (with a good opening book in each case).
Before I test it against Jorge Sammour I would like you to play at least 1 game at TC 10 + 5 sec increment with depth 6 and one with depth 7
I'm playing in the U.S. Senior tournament of state champions this weekend (online on chess.com) so I won't have time until at least Monday, but I would like to do this. But please keep in mind that although I might have been close to the same level as Jorge nearly twenty years ago, I'm a lot weaker than he is now, the difference might be more like 2 plies depth than 1.
I played four games tonite (10' + 5") vs. crippled Komodo, two vs. Skill 19 (6 ply slightly randomized) and two vs. Skill 20 (7 ply) alternating colors. Since you didn't have Komodo use an opening book vs. Jorge, I turned off the book too. Much to my surprise, I won all four games. But it's too easy to win with White at these depths without a book, Komodo as Black just gets a lost game in the opening. But when I have Black, Komodo gets a nearly equal opening so I would say those wins by me are legitimate. Maybe tomorrow I'll try again this time with the opening book on (the skill levels limit it to a reasonable depth, but it's a pretty high depth for those skill levels so in general I should try to avoid theory with the book on). I think it makes quite a big difference whether you do this with or without an opening book, especially if the human plays White. I think for you to beat Jorge with Komodo at this time control Komodo will need at least 8 ply (Skill 21) plus a good opening book, and even then maybe a draw is the most likely result. Perhaps I have slightly overestimated the strength at these low fixed depths. Also playing in and preparing for the Seniors state champions tournament probably has helped me recover at least some of my former playing strength.
Larry i do NOT believe that the opening will make a 20 Elo difference, just play with Skill = 20 and simply tae Komodo out of the opening like1. h3 the clemenz Opening which is NOT known too good with any engine :mrgreen:
Well maybe I'll do that, but it will make a huge difference compared to no book because with no book when I play White and just play normal 1.e4 I get a winning position in a few moves at these levels; with 1.h3 it's like I'm playing Black (almost) and I'll just get a slight edge out of the opening. Basically it's almost a tempo difference, probably about fifty elo difference overall between playing with book and without, if I alternate colors. If I always play White and open 1.h3 with opening book on, I suppose that's pretty fair. If I have to open 1...h6 as Black that's clearly a handicap game.
Komodo rules!

Chessqueen
Posts: 1032
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:46 am

lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:34 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:15 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:59 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:52 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:41 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:48 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:38 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:51 am
Unfortunately almost nobody want to learn chess 1 hour per day.

The people that I taught chess wanted to learn chess only 1 hour per week but I will be surprised if one hour per day is enough to beat stockfish depth 1 after a week.
You are correct Uri, it is NOT enough. Chess is harder than what people think, but there are gifted child, but even if they are 1 week is NOT enough. Talking from my own experience I started to take lesson from an online IM instructor and after 10 months of him guiding me and telling me to get a different chess book every months and testing me on what I should have learned from those books, and providing me with guided tactical positions to solves every week as I progress, different endgames books, strategies books and testing my comprehension of those books every other week, and giving different positions and asking me to take my time and answer what would be the best move to play and explain the reason why to him, anyway after 10 long months all that I have manage to accomplish is to draw versus Komodo 13.3 at Depth 4 in time control of 10 + 5 minutes, sometime I feel like I have wasted my money, but my trainer was very happy that I drew versus Komodo at depth 4. He simply put it this way you started training with me and you were a low 1300 to 1350 at your best and you have learned so much in 10 months which is what he expected me, since I am NOT a genius or gifted person like so many. All that I have to say is that there is so much to learn in chess, that the more you learn the more there is to keep on learning. I will be happy when I could beat Komodo 14 at Depth 5 Time control 10+5 sec increment and it might be harder to do because with every version of Komodo the harder it becomes :roll:
Larry what depth do you think that Jorge Sammour should play versus Komodo 13.3 at time control of 10 + 5 Sec increment, Depth 6 or Depth 7 ?


Well, since Alex Lenderman was a close match (maybe a slight underdog) vs. Komodo Skill 21 at 3' + 2", and Skill 21 is basically depth 8 with some randomization and limited book depth, he would probably be favored slightly against depth 7 with full opening book on one thread. Jorge is about a class below Lenderman in rating, but 5x the time limit should offset this, so I would bet on Jorge vs depth 7 but I would bet on Komodo using depth 8 (with a good opening book in each case).
Before I test it against Jorge Sammour I would like you to play at least 1 game at TC 10 + 5 sec increment with depth 6 and one with depth 7
I'm playing in the U.S. Senior tournament of state champions this weekend (online on chess.com) so I won't have time until at least Monday, but I would like to do this. But please keep in mind that although I might have been close to the same level as Jorge nearly twenty years ago, I'm a lot weaker than he is now, the difference might be more like 2 plies depth than 1.
I played four games tonite (10' + 5") vs. crippled Komodo, two vs. Skill 19 (6 ply slightly randomized) and two vs. Skill 20 (7 ply) alternating colors. Since you didn't have Komodo use an opening book vs. Jorge, I turned off the book too. Much to my surprise, I won all four games. But it's too easy to win with White at these depths without a book, Komodo as Black just gets a lost game in the opening. But when I have Black, Komodo gets a nearly equal opening so I would say those wins by me are legitimate. Maybe tomorrow I'll try again this time with the opening book on (the skill levels limit it to a reasonable depth, but it's a pretty high depth for those skill levels so in general I should try to avoid theory with the book on). I think it makes quite a big difference whether you do this with or without an opening book, especially if the human plays White. I think for you to beat Jorge with Komodo at this time control Komodo will need at least 8 ply (Skill 21) plus a good opening book, and even then maybe a draw is the most likely result. Perhaps I have slightly overestimated the strength at these low fixed depths. Also playing in and preparing for the Seniors state champions tournament probably has helped me recover at least some of my former playing strength.
Larry i do NOT believe that the opening will make a 20 Elo difference, just play with Skill = 20 and simply tae Komodo out of the opening like1. h3 the clemenz Opening which is NOT known too good with any engine :mrgreen:
Well maybe I'll do that, but it will make a huge difference compared to no book because with no book when I play White and just play normal 1.e4 I get a winning position in a few moves at these levels; with 1.h3 it's like I'm playing Black (almost) and I'll just get a slight edge out of the opening. Basically it's almost a tempo difference, probably about fifty elo difference overall between playing with book and without, if I alternate colors. If I always play White and open 1.h3 with opening book on, I suppose that's pretty fair. If I have to open 1...h6 as Black that's clearly a handicap game.

I do NOT think that anybody here has tested the same engine playing against each other One with a good opening and the other with no Opening, But I do NOT believe that the difference is greater than 35 points specially if LCZero with Opening play versus LCZero without Opening Book. or Alliestein with Opening versus Alliestein with No opening Book. Somebody will have to do the TEST.

lkaufman
Posts: 4286
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by lkaufman » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:24 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:46 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:34 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:15 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:59 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:52 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:41 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:48 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:38 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:51 am
Unfortunately almost nobody want to learn chess 1 hour per day.

The people that I taught chess wanted to learn chess only 1 hour per week but I will be surprised if one hour per day is enough to beat stockfish depth 1 after a week.
You are correct Uri, it is NOT enough. Chess is harder than what people think, but there are gifted child, but even if they are 1 week is NOT enough. Talking from my own experience I started to take lesson from an online IM instructor and after 10 months of him guiding me and telling me to get a different chess book every months and testing me on what I should have learned from those books, and providing me with guided tactical positions to solves every week as I progress, different endgames books, strategies books and testing my comprehension of those books every other week, and giving different positions and asking me to take my time and answer what would be the best move to play and explain the reason why to him, anyway after 10 long months all that I have manage to accomplish is to draw versus Komodo 13.3 at Depth 4 in time control of 10 + 5 minutes, sometime I feel like I have wasted my money, but my trainer was very happy that I drew versus Komodo at depth 4. He simply put it this way you started training with me and you were a low 1300 to 1350 at your best and you have learned so much in 10 months which is what he expected me, since I am NOT a genius or gifted person like so many. All that I have to say is that there is so much to learn in chess, that the more you learn the more there is to keep on learning. I will be happy when I could beat Komodo 14 at Depth 5 Time control 10+5 sec increment and it might be harder to do because with every version of Komodo the harder it becomes :roll:
Larry what depth do you think that Jorge Sammour should play versus Komodo 13.3 at time control of 10 + 5 Sec increment, Depth 6 or Depth 7 ?


Well, since Alex Lenderman was a close match (maybe a slight underdog) vs. Komodo Skill 21 at 3' + 2", and Skill 21 is basically depth 8 with some randomization and limited book depth, he would probably be favored slightly against depth 7 with full opening book on one thread. Jorge is about a class below Lenderman in rating, but 5x the time limit should offset this, so I would bet on Jorge vs depth 7 but I would bet on Komodo using depth 8 (with a good opening book in each case).
Before I test it against Jorge Sammour I would like you to play at least 1 game at TC 10 + 5 sec increment with depth 6 and one with depth 7
I'm playing in the U.S. Senior tournament of state champions this weekend (online on chess.com) so I won't have time until at least Monday, but I would like to do this. But please keep in mind that although I might have been close to the same level as Jorge nearly twenty years ago, I'm a lot weaker than he is now, the difference might be more like 2 plies depth than 1.
I played four games tonite (10' + 5") vs. crippled Komodo, two vs. Skill 19 (6 ply slightly randomized) and two vs. Skill 20 (7 ply) alternating colors. Since you didn't have Komodo use an opening book vs. Jorge, I turned off the book too. Much to my surprise, I won all four games. But it's too easy to win with White at these depths without a book, Komodo as Black just gets a lost game in the opening. But when I have Black, Komodo gets a nearly equal opening so I would say those wins by me are legitimate. Maybe tomorrow I'll try again this time with the opening book on (the skill levels limit it to a reasonable depth, but it's a pretty high depth for those skill levels so in general I should try to avoid theory with the book on). I think it makes quite a big difference whether you do this with or without an opening book, especially if the human plays White. I think for you to beat Jorge with Komodo at this time control Komodo will need at least 8 ply (Skill 21) plus a good opening book, and even then maybe a draw is the most likely result. Perhaps I have slightly overestimated the strength at these low fixed depths. Also playing in and preparing for the Seniors state champions tournament probably has helped me recover at least some of my former playing strength.
Larry i do NOT believe that the opening will make a 20 Elo difference, just play with Skill = 20 and simply tae Komodo out of the opening like1. h3 the clemenz Opening which is NOT known too good with any engine :mrgreen:
Well maybe I'll do that, but it will make a huge difference compared to no book because with no book when I play White and just play normal 1.e4 I get a winning position in a few moves at these levels; with 1.h3 it's like I'm playing Black (almost) and I'll just get a slight edge out of the opening. Basically it's almost a tempo difference, probably about fifty elo difference overall between playing with book and without, if I alternate colors. If I always play White and open 1.h3 with opening book on, I suppose that's pretty fair. If I have to open 1...h6 as Black that's clearly a handicap game.

I do NOT think that anybody here has tested the same engine playing against each other One with a good opening and the other with no Opening, But I do NOT believe that the difference is greater than 35 points specially if LCZero with Opening play versus LCZero without Opening Book. or Alliestein with Opening versus Alliestein with No opening Book. Somebody will have to do the TEST.
Well you are probably right in that case. But we are talking about the play of highly crippled standard engines searching only 7 ply or so, which are quite incapable of finding correct opening moves in critical lines at these depths. As long as I'm playing from memory, I'm playing at something like 3700 level or so, the level of top engines taking hours per move, and a seven ply search has no chance playing Black. But with a good book that forces me to play inferior noncritical moves to avoid book, it's completely different.
Komodo rules!

Chessqueen
Posts: 1032
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:34 am

lkaufman wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:24 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:46 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:34 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:15 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:59 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:52 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:41 am
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:48 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:38 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:51 am
Unfortunately almost nobody want to learn chess 1 hour per day.

The people that I taught chess wanted to learn chess only 1 hour per week but I will be surprised if one hour per day is enough to beat stockfish depth 1 after a week.
You are correct Uri, it is NOT enough. Chess is harder than what people think, but there are gifted child, but even if they are 1 week is NOT enough. Talking from my own experience I started to take lesson from an online IM instructor and after 10 months of him guiding me and telling me to get a different chess book every months and testing me on what I should have learned from those books, and providing me with guided tactical positions to solves every week as I progress, different endgames books, strategies books and testing my comprehension of those books every other week, and giving different positions and asking me to take my time and answer what would be the best move to play and explain the reason why to him, anyway after 10 long months all that I have manage to accomplish is to draw versus Komodo 13.3 at Depth 4 in time control of 10 + 5 minutes, sometime I feel like I have wasted my money, but my trainer was very happy that I drew versus Komodo at depth 4. He simply put it this way you started training with me and you were a low 1300 to 1350 at your best and you have learned so much in 10 months which is what he expected me, since I am NOT a genius or gifted person like so many. All that I have to say is that there is so much to learn in chess, that the more you learn the more there is to keep on learning. I will be happy when I could beat Komodo 14 at Depth 5 Time control 10+5 sec increment and it might be harder to do because with every version of Komodo the harder it becomes :roll:
Larry what depth do you think that Jorge Sammour should play versus Komodo 13.3 at time control of 10 + 5 Sec increment, Depth 6 or Depth 7 ?


Well, since Alex Lenderman was a close match (maybe a slight underdog) vs. Komodo Skill 21 at 3' + 2", and Skill 21 is basically depth 8 with some randomization and limited book depth, he would probably be favored slightly against depth 7 with full opening book on one thread. Jorge is about a class below Lenderman in rating, but 5x the time limit should offset this, so I would bet on Jorge vs depth 7 but I would bet on Komodo using depth 8 (with a good opening book in each case).
Before I test it against Jorge Sammour I would like you to play at least 1 game at TC 10 + 5 sec increment with depth 6 and one with depth 7
I'm playing in the U.S. Senior tournament of state champions this weekend (online on chess.com) so I won't have time until at least Monday, but I would like to do this. But please keep in mind that although I might have been close to the same level as Jorge nearly twenty years ago, I'm a lot weaker than he is now, the difference might be more like 2 plies depth than 1.
I played four games tonite (10' + 5") vs. crippled Komodo, two vs. Skill 19 (6 ply slightly randomized) and two vs. Skill 20 (7 ply) alternating colors. Since you didn't have Komodo use an opening book vs. Jorge, I turned off the book too. Much to my surprise, I won all four games. But it's too easy to win with White at these depths without a book, Komodo as Black just gets a lost game in the opening. But when I have Black, Komodo gets a nearly equal opening so I would say those wins by me are legitimate. Maybe tomorrow I'll try again this time with the opening book on (the skill levels limit it to a reasonable depth, but it's a pretty high depth for those skill levels so in general I should try to avoid theory with the book on). I think it makes quite a big difference whether you do this with or without an opening book, especially if the human plays White. I think for you to beat Jorge with Komodo at this time control Komodo will need at least 8 ply (Skill 21) plus a good opening book, and even then maybe a draw is the most likely result. Perhaps I have slightly overestimated the strength at these low fixed depths. Also playing in and preparing for the Seniors state champions tournament probably has helped me recover at least some of my former playing strength.
Larry i do NOT believe that the opening will make a 20 Elo difference, just play with Skill = 20 and simply tae Komodo out of the opening like1. h3 the clemenz Opening which is NOT known too good with any engine :mrgreen:
Well maybe I'll do that, but it will make a huge difference compared to no book because with no book when I play White and just play normal 1.e4 I get a winning position in a few moves at these levels; with 1.h3 it's like I'm playing Black (almost) and I'll just get a slight edge out of the opening. Basically it's almost a tempo difference, probably about fifty elo difference overall between playing with book and without, if I alternate colors. If I always play White and open 1.h3 with opening book on, I suppose that's pretty fair. If I have to open 1...h6 as Black that's clearly a handicap game.

I do NOT think that anybody here has tested the same engine playing against each other One with a good opening and the other with no Opening, But I do NOT believe that the difference is greater than 35 points specially if LCZero with Opening play versus LCZero without Opening Book. or Alliestein with Opening versus Alliestein with No opening Book. Somebody will have to do the TEST.
Well you are probably right in that case. But we are talking about the play of highly crippled standard engines searching only 7 ply or so, which are quite incapable of finding correct opening moves in critical lines at these depths. As long as I'm playing from memory, I'm playing at something like 3700 level or so, the level of top engines taking hours per move, and a seven ply search has no chance playing Black. But with a good book that forces me to play inferior noncritical moves to avoid book, it's completely different.
This game was played under the shredder8 GUI at Depth 5, I learned a new effective Opening Just by watching Jorge played against Komodo the 2....Nf6, But Shredder8 Opening chose a different variation Anyway here it is.


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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by M ANSARI » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:30 pm

Actually on the CB GUI this fixed ply seems to be time dependent. I played one game at Ply 4 where I decided to take my time and play slowly and got totally squashed and it played like an angry Kasparov on steroids. It totally did not play like a computer and gave up material for attack from the first few moves and completely screwed up the setup I was trying to achieve that I used to be able to get the older engines on P90 hardware to play. But then I played another game at ply 5 but playing bullet time control quick and it played like a computer and allowed the position to lock up and allowed a very easy rook endgame win. So it seems like it depends on how quickly you play and fixed depth is time dependent ... which would mean that it is also hardware dependent? Is that what is happening? I am almost certain that if you play quickly it plays much poorer moves at fixed depth. I was under the impression that fixed depth had nothing to do with hardware or time but I am almost sure that is not the case after playing fixed depth on CB GUI.

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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:05 pm

M ANSARI wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:30 pm
Actually on the CB GUI this fixed ply seems to be time dependent. I played one game at Ply 4 where I decided to take my time and play slowly and got totally squashed and it played like an angry Kasparov on steroids. It totally did not play like a computer and gave up material for attack from the first few moves and completely screwed up the setup I was trying to achieve that I used to be able to get the older engines on P90 hardware to play. But then I played another game at ply 5 but playing bullet time control quick and it played like a computer and allowed the position to lock up and allowed a very easy rook endgame win. So it seems like it depends on how quickly you play and fixed depth is time dependent ... which would mean that it is also hardware dependent? Is that what is happening? I am almost certain that if you play quickly it plays much poorer moves at fixed depth. I was under the impression that fixed depth had nothing to do with hardware or time but I am almost sure that is not the case after playing fixed depth on CB GUI.
You should play under Arena 3.0 but at depth 5 or like Larry mentioned before add 13 to the depth and set your Skill level to 18 and play with a time control of 10+ 5 Sec increment.

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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:08 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:05 pm
M ANSARI wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:30 pm
Actually on the CB GUI this fixed ply seems to be time dependent. I played one game at Ply 4 where I decided to take my time and play slowly and got totally squashed and it played like an angry Kasparov on steroids. It totally did not play like a computer and gave up material for attack from the first few moves and completely screwed up the setup I was trying to achieve that I used to be able to get the older engines on P90 hardware to play. But then I played another game at ply 5 but playing bullet time control quick and it played like a computer and allowed the position to lock up and allowed a very easy rook endgame win. So it seems like it depends on how quickly you play and fixed depth is time dependent ... which would mean that it is also hardware dependent? Is that what is happening? I am almost certain that if you play quickly it plays much poorer moves at fixed depth. I was under the impression that fixed depth had nothing to do with hardware or time but I am almost sure that is not the case after playing fixed depth on CB GUI.
You should play under Arena 3.0 but at depth 5 or like Larry mentioned before add 13 to the depth and set your Skill level to 18 and play with a time control of 10+ 5 Sec increment. I wonder how to setup Banksia GUI for this matter do you have any idea ?

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Re: What are Stockfish and Komodo estimated rating for these 5 depths ?

Post by Chessqueen » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:48 am

lkaufman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:48 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:38 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:51 am
Unfortunately almost nobody want to learn chess 1 hour per day.

The people that I taught chess wanted to learn chess only 1 hour per week but I will be surprised if one hour per day is enough to beat stockfish depth 1 after a week.
You are correct Uri, it is NOT enough. Chess is harder than what people think, but there are gifted child, but even if they are 1 week is NOT enough. Talking from my own experience I started to take lesson from an online IM instructor and after 10 months of him guiding me and telling me to get a different chess book every months and testing me on what I should have learned from those books, and providing me with guided tactical positions to solves every week as I progress, different endgames books, strategies books and testing my comprehension of those books every other week, and giving different positions and asking me to take my time and answer what would be the best move to play and explain the reason why to him, anyway after 10 long months all that I have manage to accomplish is to draw versus Komodo 13.3 at Depth 4 in time control of 10 + 5 minutes, sometime I feel like I have wasted my money, but my trainer was very happy that I drew versus Komodo at depth 4. He simply put it this way you started training with me and you were a low 1300 to 1350 at your best and you have learned so much in 10 months which is what he expected me, since I am NOT a genius or gifted person like so many. All that I have to say is that there is so much to learn in chess, that the more you learn the more there is to keep on learning. I will be happy when I could beat Komodo 14 at Depth 5 Time control 10+5 sec increment and it might be harder to do because with every version of Komodo the harder it becomes :roll:
Larry what depth do you think that Jorge Sammour should play versus Komodo 13.3 at time control of 10 + 5 Sec increment, Depth 6 or Depth 7 ?
Well, since Alex Lenderman was a close match (maybe a slight underdog) vs. Komodo Skill 21 at 3' + 2", and Skill 21 is basically depth 8 with some randomization and limited book depth, he would probably be favored slightly against depth 7 with full opening book on one thread. Jorge is about a class below Lenderman in rating, but 5x the time limit should offset this, so I would bet on Jorge vs depth 7 but I would bet on Komodo using depth 8 (with a good opening book in each case).
It would be a tough fight a depth 8 Komodo versus Jorge since Jorge has been playing versus engines for more than 20 years and he knows how to take the engine out of book form the very first 3 moves

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