NNUE at LTC

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mwyoung
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Re: NNUE at LTC

Post by mwyoung » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:29 am

stavros wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:23 pm
i see from mwyoung tournaments (TC 10min,30mins,32 threads) that nnue vs sf is close to =

Here is the current 30m + 30s results. Clearly not as impressive as with short TC and lower threads.

DESKTOP-CORSAIR, Rapid 30.0min+30.0sec 0


1 Stockfish 170720 64 POPCNT +0/=22/-0 50.00% 11.0/22 121.00
2 SF+NNUE PO 290720 x64 popc +0/=22/-0 50.00% 11.0/22 121.00
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
take on me. Foes 0.

carldaman
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Re: NNUE at LTC

Post by carldaman » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:31 am

You are not specifying which net you're using.

mwyoung
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Re: NNUE at LTC

Post by mwyoung » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:37 am

carldaman wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:31 am
You are not specifying which net you're using.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74630

Yes I did, just not here.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
take on me. Foes 0.

carldaman
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Re: NNUE at LTC

Post by carldaman » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:54 am

OK, thanks, interesting. Wouldn't that be a huge letdown if NNUE did not scale well at all!

Gino Figlio
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Re: NNUE at LTC

Post by Gino Figlio » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:01 am

Ovyron wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:17 am
Gino Figlio wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:26 am
NNUE and regular stockfish are the same in correspondence time control or analysis
I find them completely different, worlds apart. You can always guide the position to places where NNUE outperforms regular Stockfish (just give bonuses for positions where they disagree, as the disagreement grows you reach positions where regular Stockfish's eval isn't good at all.)
I define cc time control as an overnight analysis of a position, 12 hours, reaching depths of 70-90. Top move is always the same. I am not able to show positions of ongoing games but you can test using these conditions to confirm my statement (need at least two similar computers running simultaneously)

Zenmastur
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Re: NNUE at LTC

Post by Zenmastur » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:08 am

Gino Figlio wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:01 am
Ovyron wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:17 am
Gino Figlio wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:26 am
NNUE and regular stockfish are the same in correspondence time control or analysis
I find them completely different, worlds apart. You can always guide the position to places where NNUE outperforms regular Stockfish (just give bonuses for positions where they disagree, as the disagreement grows you reach positions where regular Stockfish's eval isn't good at all.)
I define cc time control as an overnight analysis of a position, 12 hours, reaching depths of 70-90. Top move is always the same. I am not able to show positions of ongoing games but you can test using these conditions to confirm my statement (need at least two similar computers running simultaneously)
First, I have done this myself, and it's my experience that the top moves aren't always the same. Second, you're talking about unassisted analysis. Assisted analysis can yield different lines of play and radically different evaluations.
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Gino Figlio
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Re: NNUE at LTC

Post by Gino Figlio » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:19 am

I am not sure you are disagreeing with my statement.
Top move (not moves) is always the same.
Unassisted analysis takes the human skill out of the equation, to make the comparison fair

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Ovyron
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Re: NNUE at LTC

Post by Ovyron » Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:26 am

Gino Figlio wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:19 am
Unassisted analysis takes the human skill out of the equation, to make the comparison fair
Okay, but then correspondence time controls are irrelevant. You can get some 72 hours unassisted analysis in 1 hour of interactive analysis so the only conclusion of letting the computer run overnight is "you're wasting your time", traditional Stockfish or not.

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Leto
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Re: NNUE at LTC

Post by Leto » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:28 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:26 am
Gino Figlio wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:19 am
Unassisted analysis takes the human skill out of the equation, to make the comparison fair
Okay, but then correspondence time controls are irrelevant. You can get some 72 hours unassisted analysis in 1 hour of interactive analysis so the only conclusion of letting the computer run overnight is "you're wasting your time", traditional Stockfish or not.
As an active correspondence player I agree with Ovyron, assisted analysis if done by a competent correspondence player is of much higher quality than any unassisted analysis, unless the unassisted analysis is done by an engine that plays almost perfect chess. I believe no engine exists today that plays almost perfect chess, even these new NNUE nets.

Gino Figlio
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Re: NNUE at LTC

Post by Gino Figlio » Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:17 pm

Agreed. What I said was that Stockfish NNUE at correspondence time control does not bring anything more than what standard Stockfish provides

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