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NNUE at LTC

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:39 pm
by stavros
its me or nnue is weaker at LTC? i see the longer TC the smaller difference than regular sf

Re: NNUE at LTC

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:03 pm
by Raphexon
ELO compression is the biggest factor probably.

Take FastGM.de
Difference between SF11 and Eth 12.25 is 253 elo at 60+0.6.
At 60m+15s it's 170 elo.

That doesn't mean Eth scales better than SF11, it's just less likely to blunder away a draw.
You can replace Ethereal with most engines on that list. That would mean either SF11 has horrible scaling, or elo compression is a thing.


To compare scaling it's better to take the time odds needed to make SFdev equal to SFNNUE at a given short TC.
Then increase TC and check if results have changed with the same time odds.

My 27-6 net also performed better at 10m+6s than at 60s+0.6s. (Fastgm list)

Re: NNUE at LTC

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:23 pm
by stavros
i see from mwyoung tournaments (TC 10min,30mins,32 threads) that nnue vs sf is close to =

Re: NNUE at LTC

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:56 pm
by bmp1974
NNUE plays beautiful positional chess at LTC (10min+20sec). Sample games



Re: NNUE at LTC

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:57 pm
by bmp1974
NNUE played with 1 book move. (It was on its own after 1st move)

Re: NNUE at LTC

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:36 pm
by corres
Longer TC give more help to the slower engine. It is obvious from Stockfish(dev) - StockfishNNUE games also.

Re: NNUE at LTC

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:46 pm
by Milos
bmp1974 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:56 pm
NNUE plays beautiful positional chess at LTC (10min+20sec).
That is not LTC, that is called rapid.

Re: NNUE at LTC

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:26 am
by Gino Figlio
NNUE and regular stockfish are the same in correspondence time control or analysis

Re: NNUE at LTC

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:17 am
by Ovyron
Gino Figlio wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:26 am
NNUE and regular stockfish are the same in correspondence time control or analysis
I find them completely different, worlds apart. You can always guide the position to places where NNUE outperforms regular Stockfish (just give bonuses for positions where they disagree, as the disagreement grows you reach positions where regular Stockfish's eval isn't good at all.)

Re: NNUE at LTC

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:37 am
by Zenmastur
bmp1974 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:56 pm
NNUE plays beautiful positional chess at LTC (10min+20sec). Sample games
Yes, but does it play stronger is the question. Beauty is very subjective. ELO isn't.
Gino Figlio wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:26 am
NNUE and regular stockfish are the same in correspondence time control or analysis
NNUE has been around long enough for this to be determined. A single CC game can last 2 years or more. NNUE has been out for a few weeks. Thousands of games or even hundreds of thousands of CC time control games would need to be played, depending on the rating difference, before this could be accurately determined. So, I think your claims are a bit premature.
Ovyron wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:17 am
Gino Figlio wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:26 am
NNUE and regular stockfish are the same in correspondence time control or analysis
I find them completely different, worlds apart. You can always guide the position to places where NNUE outperforms regular Stockfish (just give bonuses for positions where they disagree, as the disagreement grows you reach positions where regular Stockfish's eval isn't good at all.)


In general I would agree. The question is how much ELO does this translate to. I think it's yet to be determined.

Regards,

Zenmastur