interesting correspondence game

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: bob, hgm, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
jdart
Posts: 3954
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:23 am
Location: http://www.arasanchess.org

interesting correspondence game

Post by jdart » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:39 pm

Black played .. c4 here:



Stockfish really, really doesn't like this. Black's king is stuck in the center and White has what looks like a scary attack. Stockfish gives some pretty high evals during the middlegame. But in the end, as with so many correspondence games, it is a draw. 10. Kb1 apparently went out of favor after this game. .. c4 might have been found through engine analysis, but if so, it is likely a very deep search. (.. cxd4 also looks playable but White may have an advantage there).


zullil
Posts: 6345
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: interesting correspondence game

Post by zullil » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:38 pm

jdart wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:39 pm
Black played .. c4 here:



Stockfish really, really doesn't like this. Black's king is stuck in the center and White has what looks like a scary attack. Stockfish gives some pretty high evals during the middlegame. But in the end, as with so many correspondence games, it is a draw. 10. Kb1 apparently went out of favor after this game. .. c4 might have been found through engine analysis, but if so, it is likely a very deep search. (.. cxd4 also looks playable but White may have an advantage there).

After 11. f5, Stockfish+nnue finds c4 very quickly and the evaluation drops to 0.00. And it prefers 10. Qf2, although I've not searched deeply:

+0.78 10. Qf2 Nxd4 11. Nxd4 cxd4 12. Bxd4 Bc5 13. h4 b5 14. a3 O-O 15. h5 Bb7 16. Kb1 Bxd4 17. Rxd4 Rae8 18. h6 g6 19. Be2 Rb8 20. Qh4 Rfe8 21. Bd3 Qc5 22. Ne2 a5 23. c3 Bc6 24. Rc1 Qe7 25. Qxe7 Rxe7 26. Ng1 Nb6 27. Nf3 Nc4 28. g4 Ne3 29. Rg1 Reb7 30. Kc1 Nc4 31. Re1 b4 32. Bxc4 dxc4 33. Nd2 bxc3 34. bxc3 Rb2 35. Nxc4 Ra2 36. Re3 Bd5 37. Nd6 Rxa3 (depth 42, 0:06:15)

carldaman
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:13 am

Re: interesting correspondence game

Post by carldaman » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:47 pm

Enter New Game Line
r1b1kb1r/2qn1ppp/p1n1p3/1pppPP2/3P4/2N1BN2/PPPQ2PP/1K1R1B1R b kq - 0 1

Analysis by CyberNezh:

11...c4 12.fxe6 fxe6 13.Be2 Nb6 14.Rdf1 Bd7 15.Ng5 0-0-0 16.Nf7 Rg8 17.Nxd8 Qxd8 18.a3 Be7 19.Na2 Kb7 20.h4 h6 21.h5 a5 22.Ka1 b4 23.b3 Qa8 24.a4 Rh8 25.g4 Qg8 26.Rc1 g6 27.hxg6 Be8 28.Rxh6 Rxh6 29.Bxh6 Bxg6 30.Qd1 Be4
Black is better: -/+ (-0.85) Depth: 32 00:00:23
(, 01.08.2020)

Nezh likes c4 a lot for Black. It actually goes for positions like this, where it can 'extend the chain' towards the enemy king's castled position, while its own king can stay uncastled or can castle Q-side behind its own pawn mass. A good example of pointed pawn chain play, along the lines of what I posted here a few years ago (in 2015).

http://www.talkchess.com/forum3/viewtop ... 22&t=55399

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60673&p=677840&hilit=pointy#p677840

zullil
Posts: 6345
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: interesting correspondence game

Post by zullil » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:12 pm

zullil wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:38 pm
jdart wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:39 pm
Black played .. c4 here:



Stockfish really, really doesn't like this. Black's king is stuck in the center and White has what looks like a scary attack. Stockfish gives some pretty high evals during the middlegame. But in the end, as with so many correspondence games, it is a draw. 10. Kb1 apparently went out of favor after this game. .. c4 might have been found through engine analysis, but if so, it is likely a very deep search. (.. cxd4 also looks playable but White may have an advantage there).

After 11. f5, Stockfish+nnue finds c4 very quickly and the evaluation drops to 0.00. And it prefers 10. Qf2, although I've not searched deeply:

+0.78 10. Qf2 Nxd4 11. Nxd4 cxd4 12. Bxd4 Bc5 13. h4 b5 14. a3 O-O 15. h5 Bb7 16. Kb1 Bxd4 17. Rxd4 Rae8 18. h6 g6 19. Be2 Rb8 20. Qh4 Rfe8 21. Bd3 Qc5 22. Ne2 a5 23. c3 Bc6 24. Rc1 Qe7 25. Qxe7 Rxe7 26. Ng1 Nb6 27. Nf3 Nc4 28. g4 Ne3 29. Rg1 Reb7 30. Kc1 Nc4 31. Re1 b4 32. Bxc4 dxc4 33. Nd2 bxc3 34. bxc3 Rb2 35. Nxc4 Ra2 36. Re3 Bd5 37. Nd6 Rxa3 (depth 42, 0:06:15)
+0.68 10. Qf2 Nxd4 11. Nxd4 cxd4 12. Bxd4 Bc5 13. h4 O-O 14. h5 b5 15. Kb1 Bxd4 16. Qxd4 Qa7 17. h6 Qxd4 18. Rxd4 f6 19. exf6 Nxf6 20. hxg7 Kxg7 21. a4 bxa4 22. Nxa4 Ra7 23. Bd3 h5 24. g3 Rg8 25. Nb6 Kf7 26. Nxc8 Rxc8 27. Rb4 Rg8 28. Rh3 a5 29. Rb5 Ke7 30. Ka2 Raa8 31. Be2 a4 32. Rb4 Kd6 33. Rb6+ Ke7 34. Bxh5 a3 35. b4 Nxh5 36. Rxh5 Rxg3 (depth 51, 0:33:37)

jdart
Posts: 3954
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:23 am
Location: http://www.arasanchess.org

Re: interesting correspondence game

Post by jdart » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:31 pm

In general, .. c4 tends to be a bad move in the French, it just locks the pawn structure and leaves Black with little counterplay. There are always exceptions, though.

10. Qf2 is in fact the newest trend in this line, it appears.

peter
Posts: 2009
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: interesting correspondence game

Post by peter » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:49 pm

jdart wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:39 pm
Black played .. c4 here:

Hi Jon!

11...c4 has been played 14 times as for the games stored on Herbert Bellmann's 2020 corr.-DVD, in the years from 2015 till 2018.
Of these games Black won 6 times, rest draws.
In Hiarcs online- book it's the only move and it has a performance of 38% for White out of only 4 games.
The game you show is one of them and is in book till move 29. All games on Bellmann's DVD are the same up to Black's move 15.
Peter.

zullil
Posts: 6345
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: interesting correspondence game

Post by zullil » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:27 pm

zullil wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:12 pm
zullil wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:38 pm
jdart wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:39 pm
Black played .. c4 here:



Stockfish really, really doesn't like this. Black's king is stuck in the center and White has what looks like a scary attack. Stockfish gives some pretty high evals during the middlegame. But in the end, as with so many correspondence games, it is a draw. 10. Kb1 apparently went out of favor after this game. .. c4 might have been found through engine analysis, but if so, it is likely a very deep search. (.. cxd4 also looks playable but White may have an advantage there).

After 11. f5, Stockfish+nnue finds c4 very quickly and the evaluation drops to 0.00. And it prefers 10. Qf2, although I've not searched deeply:

+0.78 10. Qf2 Nxd4 11. Nxd4 cxd4 12. Bxd4 Bc5 13. h4 b5 14. a3 O-O 15. h5 Bb7 16. Kb1 Bxd4 17. Rxd4 Rae8 18. h6 g6 19. Be2 Rb8 20. Qh4 Rfe8 21. Bd3 Qc5 22. Ne2 a5 23. c3 Bc6 24. Rc1 Qe7 25. Qxe7 Rxe7 26. Ng1 Nb6 27. Nf3 Nc4 28. g4 Ne3 29. Rg1 Reb7 30. Kc1 Nc4 31. Re1 b4 32. Bxc4 dxc4 33. Nd2 bxc3 34. bxc3 Rb2 35. Nxc4 Ra2 36. Re3 Bd5 37. Nd6 Rxa3 (depth 42, 0:06:15)
+0.68 10. Qf2 Nxd4 11. Nxd4 cxd4 12. Bxd4 Bc5 13. h4 O-O 14. h5 b5 15. Kb1 Bxd4 16. Qxd4 Qa7 17. h6 Qxd4 18. Rxd4 f6 19. exf6 Nxf6 20. hxg7 Kxg7 21. a4 bxa4 22. Nxa4 Ra7 23. Bd3 h5 24. g3 Rg8 25. Nb6 Kf7 26. Nxc8 Rxc8 27. Rb4 Rg8 28. Rh3 a5 29. Rb5 Ke7 30. Ka2 Raa8 31. Be2 a4 32. Rb4 Kd6 33. Rb6+ Ke7 34. Bxh5 a3 35. b4 Nxh5 36. Rxh5 Rxg3 (depth 51, 0:33:37)
+0.47 10. Qf2 Nxd4 11. Nxd4 cxd4 12. Bxd4 Bc5 13. Kb1 b5 14. Bd3 Bxd4 15. Qxd4 Qb6 16. Qxb6 Nxb6 17. Ne2 h5 18. Nd4 Na4 19. a3 Rb8 20. Kc1 g6 21. b3 Nc5 22. Kd2 Bd7 23. Ra1 Rc8 24. Rhc1 Ke7 25. Ke3 Rc7 26. g3 Rg8 27. Rg1 Rcc8 28. Rac1 Rc7 29. Rb1 Rgc8 30. Ra1 Ne4 31. Rad1 Nc3 32. Rc1 Ne4 33. Rge1 Bc6 34. Red1 Nc5 35. Rg1 Bd7 36. Kd2 Rh8 37. Rgd1 Rg8 38. Rf1 Rh8 39. Ke3 Rcc8 40. Rfe1 Rc7 41. Rcd1 Rhc8 42. Rf1 Bc6 (depth 60, 1:20:45)

Stopping here.

peter
Posts: 2009
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: interesting correspondence game

Post by peter » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:53 pm

zullil wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:27 pm
+0.47 10. Qf2 Nxd4 11. Nxd4 cxd4 12. Bxd4 Bc5 13. Kb1 b5 14. Bd3 Bxd4 15. Qxd4 Qb6 16. Qxb6 Nxb6 17. Ne2 h5 18. Nd4 Na4 19. a3 Rb8 20. Kc1 g6 21. b3 Nc5 22. Kd2 Bd7 23. Ra1 Rc8 24. Rhc1 Ke7 25. Ke3 Rc7 26. g3 Rg8 27. Rg1 Rcc8 28. Rac1 Rc7 29. Rb1 Rgc8 30. Ra1 Ne4 31. Rad1 Nc3 32. Rc1 Ne4 33. Rge1 Bc6 34. Red1 Nc5 35. Rg1 Bd7 36. Kd2 Rh8 37. Rgd1 Rg8 38. Rf1 Rh8 39. Ke3 Rcc8 40. Rfe1 Rc7 41. Rcd1 Rhc8 42. Rf1 Bc6 (depth 60, 1:20:45)
Herbert Bellman's corr. 2020 again:

10.Kb1:
17 games, 6 x Black won, rest draws.

10.Qf2:
2 games, both drawn.

BTW it's main move in Cerebellum too.
Peter.

User avatar
Leto
Posts: 2042
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 1:40 am
Location: Dune

Re: interesting correspondence game

Post by Leto » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:23 pm

Maybe 8.qd2 might be the problem, on ICCF it seems 8.Ne2 is showing some promise.

peter
Posts: 2009
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: interesting correspondence game

Post by peter » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:21 pm

Leto wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:23 pm
Maybe 8.qd2 might be the problem, on ICCF it seems 8.Ne2 is showing some promise.
Also true, even if there are only 76 games on Bellmann's CD, 25 white wins and 5 for Black with 8.Ne2, it's main move in Cerebellum.
After 8.Qd2 there are 2473 games, 842 1-0, 264 0-1.
Peter.

Post Reply