You probably meant to write Shogi, not Go.MikeB wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:50 pmElevator speech - Go programers ( from Japan) took the SF search code and combined it with their GO NN eval and it became quickly one of the best Go engines in the world. They then took their Go engine and converted to a chess NN engine and , got it working , came back to the SF team and saids, "you guys might want take a look at this. it is already playing near the level cur-dev-Stockfish" .. the rest is history as they say .
Caveat - I really do not know the backstory, this is my conjecture from everything I have read so far. The quote above is not real.
this will be the merge of a lifetime : SF 80 Elo+
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
-
- Posts: 5563
- Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:56 pm
Re: this will be the merge of a lifetime : SF 80 Elo+
-
- Posts: 4889
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:34 am
- Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania
Re: this will be the merge of a lifetime : SF 80 Elo+
Correct.syzygy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:02 pmYou probably meant to write Shogi, not Go.MikeB wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:50 pmElevator speech - Go programers ( from Japan) took the SF search code and combined it with their GO NN eval and it became quickly one of the best Go engines in the world. They then took their Go engine and converted to a chess NN engine and , got it working , came back to the SF team and saids, "you guys might want take a look at this. it is already playing near the level cur-dev-Stockfish" .. the rest is history as they say .
Caveat - I really do not know the backstory, this is my conjecture from everything I have read so far. The quote above is not real.
-
- Posts: 476
- Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:00 pm
- Full name: Henk Drost
Re: this will be the merge of a lifetime : SF 80 Elo+
It only updates parts incrementally when the board state changes. That way it doesn't need to recalculate the whole net every time.syzygy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:00 pmYes, with the NN running on CPU.
Apparently the NN is 20MB but using it in the eval only halves nps, which I find quite remarkable. I haven't tried to understand the code yet, but it seems to rely heavily on vector instructions (unsurprisingly).
So it turns out that NNs are much better than humans at writing evaluation functions (even taking into account speed of execution).
And while 20MB, it has a lot of functionally useless features. Can't compare it 1:1 with Leela.
There are also millions of different ways to encode information inside the NN, speed is affected depending on how much it has to recalculate each ply searched.
See below for examples:
https://github.com/tttak/Stockfish/tree ... hitectures
halfkp-mobility_256x2-32-32 doesn't add a lot of size, but it causes an enormous slowdown.
halfkpe4 (which I don't really understand) quadruples size but only introduces a very minor slowdown.
-
- Posts: 511
- Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:40 pm
- Full name: Brian D. Smith
-
- Posts: 2727
- Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 10:00 pm
Re: this will be the merge of a lifetime : SF 80 Elo+
OK.. It scales very well...?!
Re: Stockfish NNUE (Sergio 2138) vs Stockfish 170720 (32 Thread Test) (TC = 30m+30s)
Post by mwyoung » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:31 am
End of Match.
DESKTOP-CORSAIR, Rapid 30.0min+30.0sec 0
1 SF+NNUE PO 290720 x64 popc +17 +7/=95/-2 52.40% 54.5/104
2 Stockfish 170720 64 POPCNT -17 +2/=95/-7 47.60% 49.5/104
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
-
- Posts: 10948
- Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:21 pm
- Full name: Kai Laskos
Re: this will be the merge of a lifetime : SF 80 Elo+
It's your fault having 91%+ draw rate. Chose better openings.mwyoung wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:52 am
OK.. It scales very well...?!
Re: Stockfish NNUE (Sergio 2138) vs Stockfish 170720 (32 Thread Test) (TC = 30m+30s)
Post by mwyoung » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:31 am
End of Match.
DESKTOP-CORSAIR, Rapid 30.0min+30.0sec 0
1 SF+NNUE PO 290720 x64 popc +17 +7/=95/-2 52.40% 54.5/104
2 Stockfish 170720 64 POPCNT -17 +2/=95/-7 47.60% 49.5/104
-
- Posts: 2727
- Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 10:00 pm
Re: this will be the merge of a lifetime : SF 80 Elo+
Book is set to 6 moves. The same settings as when I got a huge win factor over Stockfish also at short time controls. Sorry you need a new theory! And you need to do the leg work before advertising NNUE scales very well!Laskos wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:57 amIt's your fault having 91%+ draw rate. Chose better openings.mwyoung wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:52 am
OK.. It scales very well...?!
Re: Stockfish NNUE (Sergio 2138) vs Stockfish 170720 (32 Thread Test) (TC = 30m+30s)
Post by mwyoung » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:31 am
End of Match.
DESKTOP-CORSAIR, Rapid 30.0min+30.0sec 0
1 SF+NNUE PO 290720 x64 popc +17 +7/=95/-2 52.40% 54.5/104
2 Stockfish 170720 64 POPCNT -17 +2/=95/-7 47.60% 49.5/104
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
-
- Posts: 10948
- Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:21 pm
- Full name: Kai Laskos
Re: this will be the merge of a lifetime : SF 80 Elo+
Even your crappy test shows +7 -2, an excellent W/L ratio, probably denoting that at 60% draw rate, the difference could easily be 80 Elo points.mwyoung wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:02 amBook is set to 6 moves. The same settings as when I got a huge win factor over Stockfish also at short time controls. Sorry you need a new theory! And you need to do the leg work before advertising NNUE scales very well!Laskos wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:57 amIt's your fault having 91%+ draw rate. Chose better openings.mwyoung wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:52 am
OK.. It scales very well...?!
Re: Stockfish NNUE (Sergio 2138) vs Stockfish 170720 (32 Thread Test) (TC = 30m+30s)
Post by mwyoung » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:31 am
End of Match.
DESKTOP-CORSAIR, Rapid 30.0min+30.0sec 0
1 SF+NNUE PO 290720 x64 popc +17 +7/=95/-2 52.40% 54.5/104
2 Stockfish 170720 64 POPCNT -17 +2/=95/-7 47.60% 49.5/104
-
- Posts: 2727
- Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 10:00 pm
Re: this will be the merge of a lifetime : SF 80 Elo+
It could be, and if my grandma had wheels she would be a wagon. Stockfish NNUE scales good enough. The point is you never tested at LTC. So you don't know anything as usual.Laskos wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:18 amEven your crappy test shows +7 -2, an excellent W/L ratio, probably denoting that at 60% draw rate, the difference could easily be 80 Elo points.mwyoung wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:02 amBook is set to 6 moves. The same settings as when I got a huge win factor over Stockfish also at short time controls. Sorry you need a new theory! And you need to do the leg work before advertising NNUE scales very well!Laskos wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:57 amIt's your fault having 91%+ draw rate. Chose better openings.mwyoung wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:52 am
OK.. It scales very well...?!
Re: Stockfish NNUE (Sergio 2138) vs Stockfish 170720 (32 Thread Test) (TC = 30m+30s)
Post by mwyoung » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:31 am
End of Match.
DESKTOP-CORSAIR, Rapid 30.0min+30.0sec 0
1 SF+NNUE PO 290720 x64 popc +17 +7/=95/-2 52.40% 54.5/104
2 Stockfish 170720 64 POPCNT -17 +2/=95/-7 47.60% 49.5/104
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
-
- Posts: 476
- Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:00 pm
- Full name: Henk Drost
Re: this will be the merge of a lifetime : SF 80 Elo+
NNUE's "lack of scaling" posts can be summarized in just a few words: Coin flipping and elo compression.Laskos wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:18 amEven your crappy test shows +7 -2, an excellent W/L ratio, probably denoting that at 60% draw rate, the difference could easily be 80 Elo points.mwyoung wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:02 amBook is set to 6 moves. The same settings as when I got a huge win factor over Stockfish also at short time controls. Sorry you need a new theory! And you need to do the leg work before advertising NNUE scales very well!Laskos wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:57 amIt's your fault having 91%+ draw rate. Chose better openings.mwyoung wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:52 am
OK.. It scales very well...?!
Re: Stockfish NNUE (Sergio 2138) vs Stockfish 170720 (32 Thread Test) (TC = 30m+30s)
Post by mwyoung » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:31 am
End of Match.
DESKTOP-CORSAIR, Rapid 30.0min+30.0sec 0
1 SF+NNUE PO 290720 x64 popc +17 +7/=95/-2 52.40% 54.5/104
2 Stockfish 170720 64 POPCNT -17 +2/=95/-7 47.60% 49.5/104