There is a difference between delaying by offering tough resistance, and delaying by silly sacrifices. I agree that in human blitz/bullet chess things are a bit different, because "the clock is a piece" there, and board positions that are game-theoretical losses can be certain wins there because of time.
I guess the thing that really counts is to maximize the distance to a trivial loss. Sacrificing a Queen or Rook in an equal position to delay a deep mate by 1 move only speeds up the loss, because the advantage of a Queen or Rook will be a trivial win for the opponent even at bullet speed. So you basically take a certain-loss-in-1 instead of the deep mate.
SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!
Completely agree.hgm wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:01 pm There is a difference between delaying by offering tough resistance, and delaying by silly sacrifices. I agree that in human blitz/bullet chess things are a bit different, because "the clock is a piece" there, and board positions that are game-theoretical losses can be certain wins there because of time.
I guess the thing that really counts is to maximize the distance to a trivial loss. Sacrificing a Queen or Rook in an equal position to delay a deep mate by 1 move only speeds up the loss, because the advantage of a Queen or Rook will be a trivial win for the opponent even at bullet speed. So you basically take a certain-loss-in-1 instead of the deep mate.
Always Expect the Unexpected
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!
I love it when I see the computer played a mate delaying Qx check?. Now it's "I got this game won and don't blow it time" , especially by not seeing a stalemate trap
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!
In human-engine games this happens a lot. I played my Chu Shogi engine some time on the 81dojo server, and in one game it was ahead by the equivalent of a Queen and two Rooks, when it saw the opponent had a deep mate. So it sacrificed three Queen-class pieces and three Rook-class pieces in a row to delay the mate. But of course the human opponent did not see the mate at all. Being two Queens and a Rook ahead now, he had little trouble winning the end-game, though.
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!
That's exactly what I've been saying
You're the one saying the shortest mate should be played, as if there was such a rule, as if the winning player couldn't play as they wish.
Your beliefs create your reality, so be careful what you wish for.
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!
Sure, when humans are playing.
But from engines (or should I say calculators ... yes, they are calculating a mate!) I really do expect they show me the shortest win!
Jörg Oster
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!
Again u r comparing apples with oranges.
Someone playing as he likes and finding the best moves by a program are two different things.
Always Expect the Unexpected
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!
That I don't play the shortest mate doesn't mean I couldn't find it, I could have found it and decided to prolong the game (since the player that hasn't resigned did just that - how can it be argued that only the losing player can do it? why does the loser have more rights? more freedom?)
Your beliefs create your reality, so be careful what you wish for.
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!
Here the question is about a program finding the best move in its PV with highest eval.Ovyron wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:02 amThat I don't play the shortest mate doesn't mean I couldn't find it, I could have found it and decided to prolong the game (since the player that hasn't resigned did just that - how can it be argued that only the losing player can do it? why does the loser have more rights? more freedom?)
U r diverting the OP to different way.
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!
But the same applies (if a losing unassisted engine doesn't resign lost position then the winning unassisted engine should be able to win any way it wants, including longest mate, because the one wasting everyone's time is the one that doesn't resign.) If you accept I'm right in assisted chess you accept I'm right in unassisted, because nothing changes conceptually.
Your beliefs create your reality, so be careful what you wish for.