SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!

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Master Om
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!

Post by Master Om » Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:16 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:50 pm
Master Om wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:48 pm
Even if known or not known only an idiot chooses the longest path.
Only an idiot would not resign in that situation. If I have mate in 10 against you, and you're not resigning, I can have my fun and mate you in 49 or any amount of moves I desire. I've won the game, it's my choice how I win it.

If you don't like it, just resign and stop wasting everyone's time.
Only an idiot would not resign in that situation.
What situation ?
If I have mate in 10 against you, and you're not resigning, I can have my fun and mate you in 49 or any amount of moves I desire.
Absolutely not. Its a matter of principle. many play till end. This nothing to do your comment of trolling and not finding best move.
And if u have free time to troll who cares lol. But its doesnot take the importance of the fact that best move matters in a position.

]I've won the game, it's my choice how I win it.
By trolling and playing medicore moves? lol Has nothing to do with finding the best move. May be its an excuse of an inability of finding the best move may be :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Ovyron
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!

Post by Ovyron » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:06 pm

Master Om wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:16 pm
What situation ?
There's a mate on the board, the losing player is wasting everyone's time!
Master Om wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:16 pm
many play till end.
What part is "the end" is what we don't agree with, I say that if there's a mate on the board, the game is already over. The mating player has won, the other should resign.
Master Om wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:16 pm
But its doesnot take the importance of the fact that best move matters in a position.
All moves mate, they're all equal! This discussion is about why is a mate in 9 better than a mate in 10, and all the reasons you have given should be applied first to the dumb player that doesn't resign.

And even if you're right, the dumb player deserves trolling for both their failure at playing chess and being unable to find where's the resign button :P

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Master Om
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!

Post by Master Om » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:27 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:06 pm
Master Om wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:16 pm
What situation ?
There's a mate on the board, the losing player is wasting everyone's time!
Master Om wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:16 pm
many play till end.
What part is "the end" is what we don't agree with, I say that if there's a mate on the board, the game is already over. The mating player has won, the other should resign.
Master Om wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:16 pm
But its doesnot take the importance of the fact that best move matters in a position.
All moves mate, they're all equal! This discussion is about why is a mate in 9 better than a mate in 10, and all the reasons you have given should be applied first to the dumb player that doesn't resign.

And even if you're right, the dumb player deserves trolling for both their failure at playing chess and being unable to find where's the resign button :P
There's a mate on the board, the losing player is wasting everyone's time!
Hence the best move shortens the no of moves required to win/mate. Hence Best move is necessary.
All moves mate, they're all equal!
Equality doesnot exist. Mate in 2 is in lesser moves than mate in 10
and all the reasons you have given should be applied first to the dumb player that doesn't resign.
Straw-man argument. Has nothing to do with finding the best move. Quicker and faster is a must. Time is important.
Nothing to do with opponent. In ICCF i put conditional moves without much fuss.
applied first to the dumb player that doesn't resign.
Irrelevant for the context of finding the BEST move in a position.
here Qxf6 has +14.56 eval where as other moves are +3 and below. Hence It is the best and saves time and no of moves FOR ME.
Also if u have found the best defense is mate in 10 any variation will lead to mate in lesser no of moves.
Here the discussion is not at all with opponent. Its about the engine which can find the quickest and shortest way to win.
Here we are not discussing whom are we playing with as we have nothing to do what he does.
Those who cant find the best move in a position where there is a move can give any excuse for their inability.
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Gino Figlio
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!

Post by Gino Figlio » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:56 am

The best approach is to choose the shortest path to mate AND to announce the mate to the opponent. Usually when confronted with reality they resign quickly

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Master Om
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!

Post by Master Om » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:16 pm

Gino Figlio wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:56 am
The best approach is to choose the shortest path to mate AND to announce the mate to the opponent. Usually when confronted with reality they resign quickly
Agree sir...
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Ovyron
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!

Post by Ovyron » Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:24 pm

Master Om wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:27 pm
Irrelevant for the context of finding the BEST move in a position.
It's relevant because you haven't shown WHY is a shorter game better than a longer game.

And you haven't shown WHY is a shorter game better than a longer one ONLY if you're winning the game, BUT if you're losing the game then making it longer is suddenly better? It's all arbitrary!

Decide if shortest game is best for you BEFORE the game starts, and stick with it.

I used to think like that, until a losing ICCF player was losing against me, and kept playing for more than a year! I had to sit there and by the time he resigned I didn't care, he had spoiled the win and that's the reason I started quitting ICCF (and have no games there now.)

Since then I just decide before game starts that the longest game is desirable, so if losing player doesn't resign that's fine, I'll just "play with my food before eating it". All the blame for keeping the game going should fall on the resign button.

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Ovyron
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!

Post by Ovyron » Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:28 pm

Gino Figlio wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:56 am
The best approach is to choose the shortest path to mate AND to announce the mate to the opponent. Usually when confronted with reality they resign quickly
It didn't work, the player just mocked my mate announcement and said that since I had so much fun counting the moves to mate he was going to keep the game going instead of resigning, and did so for months.

I played better chess, I beat him on the board, but still he was having all the fun and had the control of how an when the game ended. He could decide if it was by mate or resignation. He could decide at what move he resigned.

Playing moves that aren't the shortest to mate gives all the control back to the winning player, as it should be. Losing players that troll don't deserve one's best.

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Master Om
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!

Post by Master Om » Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:42 am

It didn't work, the player just mocked my mate announcement and said that since I had so much fun counting the moves to mate he was going to keep the game going instead of resigning, and did so for months.
It works most of the time. There are trolls like that. But if u find the best moves to mate his deviation will shorten it and not lengthen it. But as per time controls he will play and we have nothing to do.
Hence use conditionals and forget.
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Master Om
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!

Post by Master Om » Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:44 am

It's relevant because you haven't shown WHY is a shorter game better than a longer game.
Being a chess player Its obvious for anyone to even a kid who plays chess.
I already have stated also. Repeating it wont change the fact.
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Master Om
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Re: SFNNUE Fails!! In this Positions!!

Post by Master Om » Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:54 am

Ovyron wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:24 pm
And you haven't shown WHY is a shorter game better than a longer one ONLY if you're winning the game, BUT if you're losing the game then making it longer is suddenly better? It's all arbitrary!
Already told. I dont think u r an idiot of that level not to understand it. best moves are shortest path to win and have mostly forced lines. Any deviation leads to more shorter loss. Hence best move is needed. And best move isn't always between wins most of time its a fail high means bolt from the blue in quiet position.
Decide if shortest game is best for you BEFORE the game starts, and stick with it.
We are not discussing about games here. We are discussing about a program not finding the best move out of many.
I used to think like that, until a losing ICCF player was losing against me, and kept playing for more than a year! I had to sit there and by the time he resigned I didn't care, he had spoiled the win and that's the reason I started quitting ICCF (and have no games there now.)
ICCF is not bullet chess. U need patience. It took some 5 years for me to be 2 times AICCF champ and gaining my IM title recently. The triple block system wont lengthen the match any more.
Since then I just decide before game starts that the longest game is desirable, so if losing player doesn't resign that's fine, I'll just "play with my food before eating it". All the blame for keeping the game going should fall on the resign button.
Irrelevant as per the topic i posted here.
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