Black moves first ...

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MikeB
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Black moves first ...

Post by MikeB » Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:06 am

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swissman
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Re: Black moves first ...

Post by swissman » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:46 pm

What is the sense of such a game - starting with Black to move?

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MikeB
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Re: Black moves first ...

Post by MikeB » Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:13 pm

swissman wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:46 pm
What is the sense of such a game - starting with Black to move?
The term is "just for kicks" - no other reason.
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MikeGL
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Re: Black moves first ...

Post by MikeGL » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:51 pm

swissman wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:46 pm
What is the sense of such a game - starting with Black to move?
Maybe to bring all engines out of book from move number 1.
Maybe could be used to test the theory if NNs are really just a huge book. :oops: sorry can't resist.
I told my wife that a husband is like a fine wine; he gets better with age. The next day, she locked me in the cellar.

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MikeB
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Re: Black moves first ...

Post by MikeB » Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:52 am

MikeGL wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:51 pm
swissman wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:46 pm
What is the sense of such a game - starting with Black to move?
Maybe to bring all engines out of book from move number 1.
Maybe could be used to test the theory if NNs are really just a huge book. :oops: sorry can't resist.
That is an excellent point ,I had failed to mention that this was Honey-NN playing with white, a move down - so in theory , positions it had never seen before.
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carldaman
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Re: Black moves first ...

Post by carldaman » Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:53 am

Are we sure that Stockfish doesn't recognize a reverse transposition as being the same position with colors reversed?

I once tested this and the eval was the same. For example, take the position after 1.c3 e5 2.c4, where Black has now the White side of a Sicilian (1.e4 c5).

Ras
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Re: Black moves first ...

Post by Ras » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:04 am

MikeGL wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:51 pm
Maybe to bring all engines out of book from move number 1.
My engine recognises reversed colours and still will use its internal book if "ownbook" is active - also with regular colours when White intentionally loses a tempo, like 1. e2-e3 e7-e5 2. e3-e4.
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Werewolf
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Re: Black moves first ...

Post by Werewolf » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:17 am

Actually black moves first is being seen as an anti-racist idea, based on the assumption chess promotes white privilege (white moves first).

Nutty if you ask me...

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Re: Black moves first ...

Post by Canoike » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:49 pm

Werewolf wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:17 am
Actually black moves first is being seen as an anti-racist idea, based on the assumption chess promotes white privilege (white moves first).

Nutty if you ask me...
I agree. This idea comes from leftists. They also do not like chess problems because "White to play and mate in N moves". Stupidity is infinite...

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MikeB
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Re: Black moves first ...

Post by MikeB » Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:52 am

MikeB wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:52 am
MikeGL wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:51 pm
swissman wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:46 pm
What is the sense of such a game - starting with Black to move?
Maybe to bring all engines out of book from move number 1.
Maybe could be used to test the theory if NNs are really just a huge book. :oops: sorry can't resist.
That is an excellent point ,I had failed to mention that this was Honey-NN playing with white, a move down - so in theory , positions it had never seen before.
In looking at some of the responses, I could see I needed to make my point more clear as to exactly what I was referring to when I had mentioned it was playing positions it had never seen been trained on purposely, although it is probably certain some, if not most, positions it has been trained on would still be relevant..

To explain my comment in a little more detail, the standard opening position in chess960 position parlance is position #518 ,. When you flip the board and Black plays first, you are basically playing chess960 opening #534 with colors reverse ( K and Q are transposed) , not position #518 with colors reversed - hence my comment it is playing positions it would never have seen or seen very little in training when Black Plays first.

Chess is not a symmetrical game , like checkers , it is what they call a mirror or reflection symmetrical - so when Black plays first , its King is akin to it being on the d1 square and not the e1 square.
To those not steeped in all things chess, the game looks symmetrical. When someone says “chess,” an image comes to mind of the ordered starting position of pieces, with black and white facing down across an array of ordered, alternating squares. However, the game is actually asymmetrical in the following ways:

The board isn’t symmetrical: the rightmost square on the nearest row (if you’re playing properly) is always white, and the left-hand peer is always black.
The pieces aren’t symmetrical: Kings face Queens and vice versa, looked at in either the X direction or the Y direction of the cartesian cut-up of the chess board.
The moves aren’t symmetrical: each player takes a move in their own turn, on their own timeline, slightly slipped from one another temporarily. The white player initiates and is responded to if played properly. In theory, two equally skilled “perfect” players will always see the initiative favoring the white player.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/samcurry/2 ... 68c3985425
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