Are we sure that Stockfish NNUE is better than the Normal Stockfish ?

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corres
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Re: Are we sure that Stockfish NNUE is better than the Normal Stockfish ?

Post by corres » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:12 am

mwyoung wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:36 pm
...
And the reason for this is TCEC uses bias openings. If a match shows a win for both engines in the same line. It is a busted opening. But we already know from TCEC own words. Wins are more important for views. So this is expected.
TCEC is not a fair competition, it is only an interesting show of chess.

Chessqueen
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Re: Are we sure that Stockfish NNUE is better than the Normal Stockfish ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:38 am

corres wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:12 am
mwyoung wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:36 pm
...
And the reason for this is TCEC uses bias openings. If a match shows a win for both engines in the same line. It is a busted opening. But we already know from TCEC own words. Wins are more important for views. So this is expected.
TCEC is not a fair competition, it is only an interesting show of chess.
You are correct to say that TCEC uses very bad openings, instead of using balanced Openings where there is no big advantage to either side to determine which engine is the best. They could use a balanced 4 or 6 opening moves.

Dann Corbit
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Re: Are we sure that Stockfish NNUE is better than the Normal Stockfish ?

Post by Dann Corbit » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:40 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:38 am
corres wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:12 am
mwyoung wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:36 pm
...
And the reason for this is TCEC uses bias openings. If a match shows a win for both engines in the same line. It is a busted opening. But we already know from TCEC own words. Wins are more important for views. So this is expected.
TCEC is not a fair competition, it is only an interesting show of chess.
You are correct to say that TCEC uses very bad openings, instead of using balanced Openings where there is no big advantage to either side to determine which engine is the best. They could use a balanced 4 or 6 opening moves.
How exactly do the bad openings make the contest unfair?
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Chessqueen
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Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: Are we sure that Stockfish NNUE is better than the Normal Stockfish ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:50 am

Dann Corbit wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:40 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:38 am
corres wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:12 am
mwyoung wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:36 pm
...
And the reason for this is TCEC uses bias openings. If a match shows a win for both engines in the same line. It is a busted opening. But we already know from TCEC own words. Wins are more important for views. So this is expected.
TCEC is not a fair competition, it is only an interesting show of chess.
You are correct to say that TCEC uses very bad openings, instead of using balanced Openings where there is no big advantage to either side to determine which engine is the best. They could use a balanced 4 or 6 opening moves.
How exactly do the bad openings make the contest unfair?
I was thinking about that after I wrote my statement, it should be fair since both engines will play the same bad opening in reverse :shock:
https://tcec-chess.com/live.html

Chessqueen
Posts: 1078
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: Are we sure that Stockfish NNUE is better than the Normal Stockfish ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:23 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:50 am
Dann Corbit wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:40 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:38 am
corres wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:12 am
mwyoung wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:36 pm
...
And the reason for this is TCEC uses bias openings. If a match shows a win for both engines in the same line. It is a busted opening. But we already know from TCEC own words. Wins are more important for views. So this is expected.
TCEC is not a fair competition, it is only an interesting show of chess.
You are correct to say that TCEC uses very bad openings, instead of using balanced Openings where there is no big advantage to either side to determine which engine is the best. They could use a balanced 4 or 6 opening moves.
How exactly do the bad openings make the contest unfair?
I was thinking about that after I wrote my statement, it should be fair since both engines will play the same bad opening in reverse :shock:
https://tcec-chess.com/live.html
They should be testing the normal Stockfish Vs Stockfish NNUE instead of versus Komodo https://tcec-chess.com/live.html

Gary Internet
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Re: Are we sure that Stockfish NNUE is better than the Normal Stockfish ?

Post by Gary Internet » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:24 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:23 am
They should be testing the normal Stockfish Vs Stockfish NNUE instead of versus Komodo https://tcec-chess.com/live.html
They will be. The winner is SF Classic vs Komodo then goes on to play SFNNUE. You will get the match you want. Be patient.

Chessqueen
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Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: Are we sure that Stockfish NNUE is better than the Normal Stockfish ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:22 pm

Gary Internet wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:24 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:23 am
They should be testing the normal Stockfish Vs Stockfish NNUE instead of versus Komodo https://tcec-chess.com/live.html
They will be. The winner is SF Classic vs Komodo then goes on to play SFNNUE. You will get the match you want. Be patient.
Who do you believe is better the Classic or the NNUE ?

Werewolf
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Are we sure that Stockfish NNUE is better than the Normal Stockfish ?

Post by Werewolf » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:32 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:40 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:38 am
corres wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:12 am
mwyoung wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:36 pm
...
And the reason for this is TCEC uses bias openings. If a match shows a win for both engines in the same line. It is a busted opening. But we already know from TCEC own words. Wins are more important for views. So this is expected.
TCEC is not a fair competition, it is only an interesting show of chess.
You are correct to say that TCEC uses very bad openings, instead of using balanced Openings where there is no big advantage to either side to determine which engine is the best. They could use a balanced 4 or 6 opening moves.
How exactly do the bad openings make the contest unfair?
Exactly.
A strong engine must be able to win won positions.

Chessqueen
Posts: 1078
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: Are we sure that Stockfish NNUE is better than the Normal Stockfish ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:14 pm

Werewolf wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:32 pm
Dann Corbit wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:40 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:38 am
corres wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:12 am
mwyoung wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:36 pm
...
And the reason for this is TCEC uses bias openings. If a match shows a win for both engines in the same line. It is a busted opening. But we already know from TCEC own words. Wins are more important for views. So this is expected.
TCEC is not a fair competition, it is only an interesting show of chess.
You are correct to say that TCEC uses very bad openings, instead of using balanced Openings where there is no big advantage to either side to determine which engine is the best. They could use a balanced 4 or 6 opening moves.
How exactly do the bad openings make the contest unfair?
Exactly.
A strong engine must be able to win won positions.
You probably meant the strongest of the two engines competing should be able to win a won position after the opening, but if the engine is 85- 95 Elo weaker like in the case of Komodo the most that it will do is win only 33% of the games where the opening is better for White. For instance in this last game the opening is considered very balanced where White has a slight advantage of no more than 3.5, but because white or Komodo which is the weaker engine has the first move it will probably draw. https://tcec-chess.com/live.html#div=sf ... &season=19

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Leto
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Location: Dune

Re: Are we sure that Stockfish NNUE is better than the Normal Stockfish ?

Post by Leto » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:41 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:14 pm
Werewolf wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:32 pm
Dann Corbit wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:40 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:38 am
corres wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:12 am
mwyoung wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:36 pm
...
And the reason for this is TCEC uses bias openings. If a match shows a win for both engines in the same line. It is a busted opening. But we already know from TCEC own words. Wins are more important for views. So this is expected.
TCEC is not a fair competition, it is only an interesting show of chess.
You are correct to say that TCEC uses very bad openings, instead of using balanced Openings where there is no big advantage to either side to determine which engine is the best. They could use a balanced 4 or 6 opening moves.
How exactly do the bad openings make the contest unfair?
Exactly.
A strong engine must be able to win won positions.
You probably meant the strongest of the two engines competing should be able to win a won position after the opening, but if the engine is 85- 95 Elo weaker like in the case of Komodo the most that it will do is win only 33% of the games where the opening is better for White. For instance in this last game the opening is considered very balanced where White has a slight advantage of no more than 3.5, but because white or Komodo which is the weaker engine has the first move it will probably draw. https://tcec-chess.com/live.html#div=sf ... &season=19
What do you mean 3.5? As in 3 and a half pawns advantage?

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