Is "Pure" NNUE strong also in losing position?

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Marcus9
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon May 13, 2019 4:05 pm
Full name: Marco Giorgio

Is "Pure" NNUE strong also in losing position?

Post by Marcus9 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:23 pm

I was analyzing a match played between Cfish with pure NNUE eval vs rybka 1.0 started with knight odd in a blitz game (2'+1"), to understand if the NNUE are good for playing losing position



In this position NNUE eval found h5 with -1.5 score instead Rd4 as second best with -3.2 score.
I also analyzed the position with classical eval and komodo (classic and MCTS) but none found h4.

If you're wondering CFish has won the game.

I would like to hear the opinion of those who are more experienced than me in this analysis

peter
Posts: 2171
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Is "Pure" NNUE strong also in losing position?

Post by peter » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:18 pm

Hi!
Marcus9 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:23 pm
I was analyzing a match played between Cfish with pure NNUE eval vs rybka 1.0 started with knight odd in a blitz game (2'+1"), to understand if the NNUE are good for playing losing position



In this position NNUE eval found h5 with -1.5 score instead Rd4 as second best with -3.2 score.
I also analyzed the position with classical eval and komodo (classic and MCTS) but none found h4.

If you're wondering CFish has won the game.

I would like to hear the opinion of those who are more experienced than me in this analysis
I don't think this is a a losing position.
After some Forward- Backward with NNUE Use Pure, 24 threads of 12x3GHz Xeon X5670 CPU, SSE4.1 popcnt compile, 32 G hash, 6men Syzygys, net from Stéfane Nicolet, 20 09 04, nn-25f202fd6eaa.nnue from here

https://tests.stockfishchess.org/nns


Analysis by Cfish 280920 64 POPCNT NUMA:

24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.Bg3 Qe7 27.Rad1 Bc8 28.c4 Nxc4 29.Rd4 Nb6 30.Bh4 Qxh4 31.Rxh4 Nd5 32.f4 Kf8 33.f5 Ke7 34.fxe6 a5 35.Rc1 Kd6 36.Bf7 a4 37.Rd4 a3 38.e7 Kxe7 39.Bxd5 cxd5 40.Rxd5 Be6 41.Rxb5 Ra8 42.Kf2 a2 43.Ra1 Ra7 44.Ke3 Ra4 45.Kf2 Kf6 46.Rb6 Kf5 47.Rb7 Rg4 48.Rb5+ Kf6 49.Re1 Rg5 50.Rb6 Kf7 51.Rbxe6 a1Q 52.Rxa1 Kxe6 53.Ra7 Kf6 54.Kf3 Rxh5 55.Ra6+ Kf7 56.Kg4 Rc5 57.Kg3 Re5 58.Kh4 Re7 59.Rc6 Re2
= (0.00) Depth: 58/72 00:10:59 5101MN, tb=5929496

Crystal with the fortress detection code from Joseph Ellis didn't find 24.h5 without NNUE- usage within 3 minutes neither at a single try, yet is on the move with the same net as Cfish above almost at once too.

With empty hash started Use NNUE, which as for Crystal means pure too, there's no hybrid eval of Crystal's:

5qkr/1b4p1/pPp1p1Bp/1p1nB3/1P5P/8/2P2PP1/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Crystal 110920:

Code: Select all

24.h5 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.Rab1 b4 27.Rd4 
  -/+  (-0.83)   Depth: 7/8   00:00:00  328kN
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Rd3 Qe7 26.Re1 c5 27.c4 bxc4 
  -/+  (-0.81)   Depth: 8/10   00:00:00  495kN
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Rac1 Qe7 26.c4 Nxb6 27.cxb5 axb5 28.Rd6 Nc8 
  -/+  (-0.92)   Depth: 9/15   00:00:00  666kN
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Rac1 Qe7 26.c4 bxc4 27.Rxc4 c5 28.Bc7 Bc6 29.Re4 Nxb6 
  -/+  (-1.03)   Depth: 10/15   00:00:00  907kN
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Rd3 Qe7 26.f4 Qc5+ 27.Bd4 Qd6 28.Be5 Qe7 29.Rc1 c5 30.c4 Nxb6 31.cxb5 axb5 
  -/+  (-1.03)   Depth: 11/18   00:00:00  1339kN
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.Rad1 Nd5 27.f4 Qc5+ 28.Bd4 Qe7 29.f5 c5 30.Rxe6 cxd4 31.Rxe7 
  -/+  (-1.14)   Depth: 12/22   00:00:00  3079kN
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bc7 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Bxe6 Re8 31.Reb1 Qc3 32.Bd7 Re5 33.cxb5 axb5 34.Bxb5 Rxh5 
  -/+  (-1.07)   Depth: 13/27   00:00:01  5205kN
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Qe7 27.Rad1 bxc4 28.Bd6 Qd7 29.Bc5 Nd5 30.Re3 Qc8 31.Rf3 Nf6 
  -/+  (-0.84)   Depth: 14/27   00:00:01  6179kN
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bc7 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Rab1 Qxc4 31.Bxe6 Bd5 32.Rbc1 Qxc1 33.Rxc1 Kxe6 34.Bxc5 
  -/+  (-0.85)   Depth: 15/27   00:00:01  8499kN
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bc7 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.cxb5 Rc8 30.bxa6 Bd5 31.Reb1 Qg4 32.f3 Bxf3 33.Ra2 Bd5 34.Rf2 
  -/+  (-0.82)   Depth: 16/31   00:00:01  12709kN
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bd4 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Bxe6 Re8 31.Ba5 Qb2 32.Rab1 Qa3 33.Ra1 Qxa1 34.Rxa1 Rxe6 35.cxb5 axb5 36.Bc3+ Kf7 37.Ra5 
  -/+  (-0.78)   Depth: 17/31   00:00:02  17331kN, tb=2
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bd4 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Bxe6 Re8 31.Ba5 Qb2 32.Rab1 Qa3 33.Ra1 Qxa1 34.Rxa1 Rxe6 35.Bc3+ Kf7 36.Ra5 b4 37.Bd2 Rc6 38.f3 Kg8 
  -/+  (-0.79)   Depth: 18/31   00:00:02  18425kN, tb=2
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bc7 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Bxe6 Re8 31.Ba5 Qb2 32.Rab1 Qa3 33.Ra1 Qxa1 34.Rxa1 Rxe6 35.Bc3+ Kf7 36.Ra5 b4 37.Bd2 
  -/+  (-0.77)   Depth: 19/32   00:00:03  26819kN, tb=3
24.h5 
  -/+  (-0.74 ++)   Depth: 20/35   00:00:05  47817kN, tb=3
24.h5 Qxb4 
  -/+  (-0.82 --)   Depth: 20/40   00:00:06  50118kN, tb=3
24.h5 
  -/+  (-0.75 ++)   Depth: 20/44   00:00:06  53051kN, tb=13
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bd4 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Bxe6 Re8 31.Ba5 Qb2 32.Rab1 Qa3 33.Ra1 Qd3 34.Rad1 Qxd1 35.Rxd1 Kxe6 36.Bc3 Rg8 37.f3 b4 38.Bb2 a5 39.Ra1 Ra8 40.Bxg7 Rg8 41.Bxh6 Bxf3 
  -/+  (-0.71)   Depth: 20/45   00:00:08  68838kN, tb=41
24.h5 Qxb4 
  =/+  (-0.68 --)   Depth: 21/42   00:00:08  68978kN, tb=42
24.h5 Qxb4 
  -/+  (-0.73 --)   Depth: 21/42   00:00:08  69001kN, tb=42
24.h5 Qxb4 
  -/+  (-0.79 --)   Depth: 21/42   00:00:08  69546kN, tb=42
24.h5 
  -/+  (-0.74 ++)   Depth: 21/42   00:00:08  69771kN, tb=42
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bc7 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Bxe6 Re8 31.Ba5 Qb2 32.Rab1 Qd4 33.Rbd1 Qxd1 34.Rxd1 Kxe6 35.Bc3 Rg8 36.f3 
  -/+  (-0.75)   Depth: 21/42   00:00:08  69897kN, tb=42
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bc7 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Bxe6 Re8 31.Ba5 Qb2 32.Rab1 Qd4 33.Rbd1 Qxd1 34.Rxd1 Kxe6 35.Bc3 Rg8 36.f3 b4 37.Bb2 g6 38.hxg6 Rxg6 39.Kf2 Ke7 40.Ra1 Rd6 41.Bc1 Rd4 42.Bxh6 
  -/+  (-0.85)   Depth: 22/37   00:00:08  70617kN, tb=42
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bc7 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Bxe6 Re8 31.Ba5 Qb2 32.Rab1 Qd4 33.Rbd1 Qxd1 34.Rxd1 Kxe6 35.Bc3 Rg8 36.f3 b4 37.Bb2 g6 38.hxg6 Rxg6 39.Kf2 Ke7 40.Be5 a5 
  -/+  (-0.87)   Depth: 23/42   00:00:10  87252kN, tb=59
24.h5 
  -/+  (-0.87 ++)   Depth: 24/49   00:00:13  115MN, tb=80
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bc7 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Bxe6 Re8 31.Ba5 Qb3 32.Rab1 Qa3 33.Ra1 Qd3 34.Rad1 Qxd1 35.Rxd1 Kxe6 36.f3 b4 37.Kf2 Rf8 38.Bc7 Rc8 39.Re1+ Kf7 40.Bd6 Rc6 41.Re7+ Kf6 42.Bxc5 Rxc5 43.Rxb7 a5 44.Rb6+ Ke7 45.Ra6 b3 46.g4 b2 47.Rb6 
  -/+  (-0.87)   Depth: 24/49   00:00:16  136MN, tb=168
24.h5 Qxb4 
  -/+  (-0.86 --)   Depth: 25/46   00:00:23  190MN, tb=576
24.h5 
  -/+  (-0.82 ++)   Depth: 25/46   00:00:23  191MN, tb=577
24.h5 
  -/+  (-0.76 ++)   Depth: 25/46   00:00:23  192MN, tb=577
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bd4 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Rab1 Qxc4 31.Bxe6 Bd5 32.Bd7 Ra8 33.Rbc1 Qf4 34.Rxc5 Qd2 35.Rcc1 Kf7 36.Be3 Qb4 37.Bc5 Qf4 38.Re7+ Kg8 39.Rd1 Bc4 
  -/+  (-0.74)   Depth: 25/46   00:00:31  252MN, tb=1138
24.h5 Qxb4 
  =/+  (-0.70 --)   Depth: 26/34   00:00:37  304MN, tb=1644
24.h5 Qxb4 
  -/+  (-0.75 --)   Depth: 26/37   00:00:41  334MN, tb=1833
24.h5 
  =/+  (-0.70 ++)   Depth: 26/52   00:00:42  343MN, tb=2326
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bd4 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Rab1 Qxc4 31.Bxe6 Qxe6 32.Rxe6+ Kxe6 33.Bxc5 Kd5 34.Bb4 Kc4 35.f3 Bd5 36.Kf2 Rb8 37.Ke3 Ra8 38.Ba5 Re8+ 39.Kf4 Re6 40.Rc1+ Kb3 41.Rb1+ Kc2 42.Rb4 Kd3 43.g4 Re2 44.Kg3 
  -/+  (-0.75)   Depth: 26/52   00:00:47  379MN, tb=2610
24.h5 
  -/+  (-0.81 ++)   Depth: 27/46   00:00:47  380MN, tb=2628
24.h5 
  -/+  (-0.77 ++)   Depth: 27/46   00:00:47  382MN, tb=2631
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bc7 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Rab1 Qxc4 31.Bxe6 Qxe6 32.Rxe6+ Kxe6 33.Bxc5 Kd5 34.Bb4 Kc4 35.f3 Bd5 36.Kf2 Ra8 37.Ba5 Rb8 38.Rc1+ Kb3 39.Rb1+ Kc2 40.Rb4 Kd3 41.Rb1 Rb7 42.Rd1+ Kc4 43.Rc1+ Kb3 44.Rb1+ Kc2 45.Rb4 Re7 46.g4 Kd3 47.Rf4 Bc4 
  -/+  (-0.80)   Depth: 27/52   00:00:58  465MN, tb=3402
24.h5 Qxb4 
  -/+  (-0.78 --)   Depth: 28/52   00:01:19  639MN, tb=3423
24.h5 Qxb4 
  -/+  (-0.83 --)   Depth: 28/65   00:02:11  1047MN, tb=5285
24.h5 
  -/+  (-0.78 ++)   Depth: 28/65   00:02:11  1047MN, tb=5285
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bd4 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Rab1 Qxc4 31.Bxe6 Bd5 32.Bd7 Qf4 33.Bxc5 Qc7 34.Bd4+ Kf7 35.Bf5 Rf8 36.Re5 Kg8 37.Rbe1 Bf7 38.Bg6 Qc6 39.Re7 a5 40.R1e4 b4 41.Bb2 Qd6 42.Rb7 Qd1+ 43.Kh2 
  -/+  (-0.73)   Depth: 28/65   00:02:11  1049MN, tb=5285
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bd4 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Rab1 Qxc4 31.Bxe6 Bd5 32.Bd7 Qf4 33.Bxc5 Qc7 34.Bd4+ Kf7 35.Bf5 Rf8 36.Re5 Kg8 37.Rbe1 Bf7 38.Bg6 Qc6 39.Re7 a5 40.R1e4 b4 41.Bb2 Qd6 
  -/+  (-0.72)   Depth: 29/36   00:02:12  1055MN, tb=5291
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bc7 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Rab1 Qxc4 31.Bxe6 Bd5 32.Bd7 Qf4 33.Bxc5 Qc7 34.Bd4+ Kf7 35.Bf5 Rf8 36.Re5 Kg8 37.Rbe1 Qa5 38.Bg6 Qb4 39.Rd1 Bc6 40.Rc5 Rc8 41.Bf5 Rd8 42.Rxc6 Rxd4 
  -/+  (-0.71)   Depth: 30/39   00:02:19  1108MN, tb=5368
24.h5 Qxb4 
  -/+  (-0.75 --)   Depth: 31/48   00:02:25  1159MN, tb=5665
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bd4 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Rab1 Qxc4 31.Bxe6 Qxe6 32.Rxe6+ Kxe6 33.Bxc5 Kd5 34.Bb4 Kc4 35.f3 Ra8 36.Ba5 Bd5 37.Rb4+ Kc5 38.Rf4 Bc4 39.Rf5+ Kd4 40.Kf2 Rb8 41.Bb4 a5 42.Bxa5 Kd3 43.Bc7 Rb7 44.Rc5 b4 
  -/+  (-0.73)   Depth: 31/48   00:02:34  1226MN, tb=6050
24.h5 Qxb4 
  -/+  (-0.78 --)   Depth: 32/54   00:06:34  3066MN, tb=9589
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bc7 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Rab1 Qxc4 31.Bxe6 Qxe6 32.Rxe6+ Kxe6 33.Bxc5 Kd5 34.Bb4 Kc4 35.f3 Bd5 36.Kf2 Ra8 37.Ba5 Rb8 38.Rb4+ Kd3 39.Kg3 Bc4 40.Rb2 Bf7 41.Kh4 Bd5 42.Bb4 Rb7 43.Kg3 Kd4 44.Kg4 Bc6 
  -/+  (-0.82)   Depth: 32/54   00:06:38  3104MN, tb=9774
24.h5 
  -/+  (-0.86 ++)   Depth: 33/46   00:06:57  3248MN, tb=10911
24.h5 
  -/+  (-0.82 ++)   Depth: 33/52   00:07:17  3400MN, tb=14572
24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.c4 Kf8 27.Bc7 Ke7 28.Bxb6 c5 29.Bf5 Kf6 30.Rab1 Kxf5 31.Rxb4 cxb4 32.cxb5 axb5 33.Rb1 Kg5 34.Rxb4 Bc6 35.g4 Rf8 36.Kh2 e5 37.f3 Bxf3 38.Rxb5 Kxg4 39.Rxe5 Rb8 40.Re6 Rb7 41.Rd6 Re7 42.Bd8 Re2+ 43.Kg1 Kxh5 44.Kf1 Rh2 
  -/+  (-0.88)   Depth: 33/54   00:07:37  3552MN, tb=25553

With classical eval after Forward- Backward of some moves following h5, score's getting smaller and smaller too:

5qkr/1b4p1/pPp1p1Bp/1p1nB3/1P5P/8/2P2PP1/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Crystal 110920:

24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.Bg3 Qe7 27.Rad1 Bc8 28.c4 Nd7 29.Re4 Nf8 30.Bh4 Qc7 31.Rd8 e5 32.f4 Qxd8 33.Bxd8 Nxg6 34.hxg6 Bf5 35.Rxe5 Bxg6 36.Re6 Kh7 37.Bc7 Ra8 38.Rxc6 Be8 39.Re6 bxc4 40.Ba5 Bf7 41.Rb6 Rd8 42.Rxa6 Rd1+ 43.Kh2 Rd4 44.Bc3 Rxf4 45.Kg3 Rf1 46.Ra3 Rf5 47.Ra7 Rg5+ 48.Kf2 Bd5 49.g3 Be4
-/+ (-0.95) Depth: 37/69 00:14:18 14771MN, tb=177734

After about 10 moves towards 0.00.

And then Cfish started with empty hash and Use NNUE Hybrid again:

5qkr/1b4p1/pPp1p1Bp/1p1nB3/1P5P/8/2P2PP1/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Cfish 280920 64 POPCNT NUMA:

Code: Select all

24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Qxb6 
  -+  (-4.32)   Depth: 7/8   00:00:00  32kN
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.Rad1 
  -+  (-3.48)   Depth: 8/9   00:00:00  34kN
24.c3 Qe7 25.Rd4 Nxb6 26.Rf4 Nc4 27.Rf7 Qxf7 28.Bxf7+ Kxf7 
  -+  (-4.44)   Depth: 9/12   00:00:00  74kN
24.Ra3 Nxb6 25.Rf3 Qe7 26.Rf7 Qxf7 27.Bxf7+ Kxf7 
  -+  (-3.33)   Depth: 10/13   00:00:00  133kN
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.Bd3 h5 27.c4 Nxb6 28.Rd8+ Kf7 29.Rxh8 Qxe5 30.Rb1 
  -+  (-3.71)   Depth: 11/18   00:00:00  227kN
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Qe7 27.Bg3 Qd8 28.c4 Qxb6 29.Be5 bxc4 30.Rxc4 Qb5 
  -+  (-3.64)   Depth: 12/18   00:00:00  248kN
24.Rd4 Qe7 25.Rad1 c5 26.bxc5 Qxc5 27.h5 Qxb6 28.c4 bxc4 29.Rxc4 Ne3 30.Rc7 Nxd1 
  -+  (-3.67)   Depth: 13/18   00:00:00  519kN
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 b4 27.Rad1 Qe7 28.Rg4 Nxb6 29.Bd6 Qd8 30.Rf4 Nd5 31.Bxb4 
  -+  (-3.33)   Depth: 14/22   00:00:00  949kN
24.Rd4 Nxb6 25.Ra3 Qe7 26.Rf3 Nd5 27.h5 Bc8 28.c4 bxc4 29.Rxc4 Bd7 30.Rf7 Qxf7 31.Bxf7+ Kxf7 32.f3 Nf6 
  -+  (-3.28)   Depth: 15/22   00:00:00  1002kN
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 b4 27.Rad1 Qxb6 28.Rg4 Bc6 29.Bd3 Qb7 30.Rxg7+ Qxg7 31.Bxg7 Kxg7 32.Bxa6 Kf7 
  -+  (-2.97)   Depth: 16/29   00:00:00  1353kN
24.Rd4 Nxb6 25.Ra3 Nd5 26.Rf3 Qe7 27.h5 a5 28.bxa5 c5 29.Rg4 Nf6 30.Bxf6 gxf6 31.Be4+ Kf7 32.Bxb7 Qxb7 33.Rg6 f5 34.Rfg3 Qc6 
  -+  (-3.03)   Depth: 17/29   00:00:00  1901kN
24.Rd4 Nxb6 25.Ra3 Qe7 26.Rf3 Nd5 27.h5 a5 28.c4 bxc4 29.bxa5 c3 30.Rd1 c5 31.Rb1 Nb4 32.Rf7 Qxf7 33.Bxf7+ Kxf7 34.Bxc3 Be4 35.Rb2 
  -+  (-2.92)   Depth: 18/33   00:00:00  3349kN
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 Qxb6 28.R1d3 Ke7 29.Bxg7 Rg8 30.Bxh6 Kd7 31.Bf4 Qc6 32.Rf3 Kc8 33.Be5 b4 34.Rf7 
  -+  (-2.86)   Depth: 19/34   00:00:00  6504kN
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 Qxb6 28.c4 bxc4 29.Rxc4 Qb5 30.Rb1 Qd7 31.Rg4 a5 32.Rd1 Ba6 33.Ra1 Ke7 34.Rxa5 Bb7 35.Bd3 Rg8 36.Rxg7+ Rxg7 37.Bxg7 
  -+  (-2.67)   Depth: 20/34   00:00:01  8727kN
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.Rg4 Qxb6 29.Be4 Ke8 30.Bxg7 Rg8 31.Bh7 Rxg7 32.Rxg7 Kf8 33.Rg8+ Ke7 34.Rg7+ Kd6 35.Bg8 Qc6 36.Rg6 Qxc2 37.Rxe6+ Kc5 
  -+  (-2.54)   Depth: 21/34   00:00:01  11934kN, tb=14
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.Rg4 Ke7 29.Bxg7 Rf8 30.Bxf8+ Kxf8 31.Rg3 Qxb6 32.Rf3+ Ke7 33.Rf7+ Kd6 34.Rh7 Kc5 35.Rxh6 Nf4 36.f3 Bd5 37.Rh7 e5 
  -+  (-2.55)   Depth: 22/35   00:00:01  20239kN, tb=119
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.Rg4 Ke7 29.Bxg7 Rf8 30.Rd2 Rf4 31.Rg3 Qxb6 32.Bxh6 Ra4 33.Bg5+ Kd7 34.Rd1 Rd4 35.Rgd3 Rg4 36.Be3 Qd6 37.g3 Qe7 38.Bb6 
  -+  (-2.76)   Depth: 23/40   00:00:02  29877kN, tb=171
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Qxb6 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Rf7+ Kd8 31.Bxg7 Rg8 32.Bh7 Re8 33.Bxh6 Kc8 34.Be4 Bc6 35.Bg7 Qd8 36.h6 Qg5 37.Ra7 a4 38.c4 bxc4 39.Ra6 Bb5 40.Ra7 c3 
  -+  (-2.94)   Depth: 24/45   00:00:03  46427kN, tb=237
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-2.94 ++)   Depth: 25/45   00:00:03  49925kN, tb=254
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.10 --)   Depth: 25/45   00:00:03  51767kN, tb=277
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.28 --)   Depth: 25/45   00:00:04  59578kN, tb=360
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.12 ++)   Depth: 25/45   00:00:04  62956kN, tb=399
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rd3 Qxb6 28.Rad1 a5 29.Rg3 Ke7 30.Bxg7 Rg8 31.Bh7 Rf8 32.Bxf8+ Kxf8 33.Be4 b4 34.Rdd3 a4 35.Rg6 Ne7 36.Rf6+ Kg7 37.Rf4 Bxe4 38.Rg3+ Bg6 39.hxg6 Nxg6 40.Rgg4 Qc6 41.Rxb4 a3 42.Ra4 Qxc2 
  -+  (-3.25)   Depth: 25/46   00:00:04  64455kN, tb=410
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.16 ++)   Depth: 26/38   00:00:04  66159kN, tb=450
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.08 ++)   Depth: 26/38   00:00:04  66182kN, tb=450
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Qxb6 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Rf7+ Kd8 31.Bxg7 Rg8 32.Bh7 Re8 33.Bxh6 Kc8 34.Be4 Bc6 35.Bg7 Nc3 36.Bxc6 Qxc6 37.Re1 Qc4 38.Be5 Ne2+ 39.Kf1 Nd4+ 40.Kg1 Rg8 41.h6 
  -+  (-3.25)   Depth: 26/38   00:00:04  68278kN, tb=457
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.33 --)   Depth: 27/37   00:00:06  92597kN, tb=1030
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.c4 bxc4 27.Ra4 h5 28.Raxc4 Qa5 29.Rc1 Rh6 30.Be4 Qb5 31.Rd3 Qxb6 32.Rg3 Nf6 33.Rb1 Qc5 34.Bxf6 Rxf6 35.Rxb7 Qxf2+ 36.Kh2 Rf4 37.Rbxg7+ Kf8 38.Rg8+ Kf7 39.R8g7+ Kf6 40.R7g6+ Ke7 41.Rg7+ Kd6 42.Rd3+ Ke5 43.Bb7 Rxh4+ 44.Rh3 Rxh3+ 45.Kxh3 a5 46.Bf3 a4 47.Rg5+ Kf4 
  -+  (-3.40)   Depth: 27/48   00:00:06  100MN, tb=1213
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.32 ++)   Depth: 28/49   00:00:06  105MN, tb=1341
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.24 ++)   Depth: 28/49   00:00:06  105MN, tb=1341
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.12 ++)   Depth: 28/49   00:00:06  105MN, tb=1341
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-2.94 ++)   Depth: 28/49   00:00:06  106MN, tb=1342
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rd3 Qxb6 28.Rad1 Ke7 29.Bxg7 Rg8 30.Bxh6 Qc7 31.Bg5+ Kd7 32.Bd2 Kc8 33.Re1 b4 34.Rf3 Ne7 35.Rg3 Qc5 36.Rg5 Qd6 37.Bd3 Rxg5 38.Bxg5 a5 39.Bxe7 
  -+  (-3.09)   Depth: 28/49   00:00:07  110MN, tb=1371
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.01 ++)   Depth: 29/33   00:00:07  115MN, tb=1393
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-2.93 ++)   Depth: 29/43   00:00:07  116MN, tb=1404
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-2.80 ++)   Depth: 29/43   00:00:07  117MN, tb=1404
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Qxb6 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Bxg7 Rg8 31.Rf7+ Kd8 32.Bxh6 Kc8 33.Re1 b4 34.Rxe6 Qxe6 35.Bf5 Rxg2+ 36.Kf1 Qxf5 37.Rxf5 Rh2 38.Bg7 Rh1+ 39.Ke2 Rxh5 
  -+  (-2.67)   Depth: 29/43   00:00:07  120MN, tb=1500
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-2.75 --)   Depth: 30/47   00:00:08  126MN, tb=1537
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-2.83 --)   Depth: 30/47   00:00:08  128MN, tb=1587
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-2.96 --)   Depth: 30/52   00:00:10  159MN, tb=2663
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-2.85 ++)   Depth: 30/52   00:00:11  172MN, tb=3012
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.13 --)   Depth: 30/52   00:00:11  182MN, tb=3670
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-2.87 ++)   Depth: 30/52   00:00:14  223MN, tb=5081
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Qxb6 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Rf7+ Kd8 31.Be4 Qc6 32.Bxg7 Re8 33.Bxh6 Qc4 34.Re1 Qc3 35.Rb1 Qe5 36.Bf3 Re7 37.Rf8+ Kd7 38.Bd2 b4 39.c4 Qd4 40.Bg5 Qxc4 41.Bxe7 Kxe7 42.Rh8 Qc3 43.Rh6 Bc6 44.Rh7+ Kd6 
  -+  (-3.19)   Depth: 30/52   00:00:14  225MN, tb=5329
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.27 --)   Depth: 31/46   00:00:16  254MN, tb=6164
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.19 ++)   Depth: 31/46   00:00:16  254MN, tb=6164
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.07 ++)   Depth: 31/46   00:00:16  254MN, tb=6164
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-2.89 ++)   Depth: 31/60   00:00:16  255MN, tb=6188
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Qxb6 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Rf7+ Kd8 31.Be4 Qc6 32.Bxg7 Re8 33.Bxh6 Qc4 34.Re1 Qc3 35.Rb1 Bc6 36.Bg7 Qc4 37.Re1 Ne7 38.Bxc6 Nxc6 39.h6 e5 40.Rf6 Qc3 41.Re3 Qxc2 42.Rxc6 Qxc6 43.h7 e4 44.h8Q Rxh8 45.Bxh8 Kd7 46.Bg7 b4 
  -+  (-3.10)   Depth: 31/60   00:00:16  255MN, tb=6189
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.01 ++)   Depth: 32/59   00:00:16  259MN, tb=6331
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-2.93 ++)   Depth: 32/59   00:00:16  263MN, tb=6500
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.18 --)   Depth: 32/59   00:00:17  266MN, tb=6654
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.36 --)   Depth: 32/61   00:00:19  303MN, tb=8055
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.17 ++)   Depth: 32/61   00:00:19  305MN, tb=8081
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Qxb6 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Rf7+ Kd8 31.Be4 Qc6 32.Bxg7 Re8 33.Bxh6 Qc4 34.Re1 Qc3 35.Rd1 Qe5 36.Bg6 Qe2 37.Rd3 Kc8 38.Rxb7 Kxb7 39.Bxe8 Nf6 40.Bg5 Nxe8 41.h6 Qe1+ 42.Kh2 Qxf2 43.h7 Qf8 44.Rh3 Qh8 45.Rh6 a4 46.Be7 
  -+  (-3.40)   Depth: 32/61   00:00:21  338MN, tb=9760
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.32 ++)   Depth: 33/31   00:00:21  340MN, tb=10015
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.24 ++)   Depth: 33/50   00:00:22  343MN, tb=10256
24.Rab1 
  -+  (-3.12 ++)   Depth: 33/50   00:00:23  365MN, tb=11339
24.Rab1 h5 25.Rb3 Qe7 26.Rf3 Rh6 27.Rf7 Qxf7 28.Bxf7+ Kxf7 29.c3 Rh8 30.Bd4 Rd8 31.Bc5 e5 32.Rd3 g6 33.Kf1 Rd7 34.Ke1 Ke6 35.Kd2 Nf6 36.f3 Rxd3+ 37.Kxd3 Kd5 38.c4+ bxc4+ 39.Kc3 Nd7 40.Bf2 c5 41.bxc5 Nxc5 
  -+  (-3.32)   Depth: 33/50   00:00:24  387MN, tb=12096
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Qxb6 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Rf7+ Kd8 31.Be4 Qc6 32.Bxg7 Re8 33.Bxh6 Qc4 34.Bg6 Qe2 35.Rd3 Kc8 36.Rxb7 Kxb7 37.Bxe8 Nf6 38.Bg5 Nxe8 39.h6 Qe1+ 40.Kh2 Qxf2 41.h7 Qf8 42.Bd8 a4 43.Rh3 Qh8 44.Be7 Kc6 45.Kg1 Nd6 
  -+  (-3.37)   Depth: 34/44   00:00:26  418MN, tb=16753
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.28 ++)   Depth: 35/52   00:00:27  432MN, tb=17741
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Qxb6 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Rf7+ Kd8 31.Be4 Qc6 32.Bxg7 Re8 33.Bxh6 Qc4 34.Re1 Qc3 35.Rb1 Qe5 36.Rxb5 Qxe4 37.Rfxb7 Kc8 38.Rb1 a4 39.g3 Qe2 40.c4 Nc7 41.Rb8+ Kd7 42.Rxe8 Kxe8 43.Bf4 e5 44.h6 Kf7 45.Be3 a3 46.Rb7 Qxc4 47.h7 Kg7 
  -+  (-3.32)   Depth: 35/57   00:00:28  441MN, tb=18298
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.40 --)   Depth: 36/49   00:00:34  535MN, tb=25399
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.49 --)   Depth: 36/59   00:00:38  600MN, tb=29252
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.61 --)   Depth: 36/61   00:00:42  659MN, tb=33409
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.50 ++)   Depth: 36/61   00:00:42  668MN, tb=33820
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rd3 Qxb6 28.Rad1 a5 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Rf7+ Kd8 31.Be4 Qc6 32.Bxg7 Re8 33.Bxh6 Qc4 34.Re1 Qc3 35.Rb1 Qe5 36.Rxb7 Qxe4 37.R1xb5 Kc8 38.Rb1 a4 39.g3 Qxc2 40.R7b5 Kd7 41.Rc1 Qd3 42.Ra5 Rh8 43.Bg7 Rxh5 44.Rxa4 e5 45.g4 
  -+  (-3.52)   Depth: 36/61   00:00:45  715MN, tb=37786
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.60 --)   Depth: 37/51   00:00:50  790MN, tb=42009
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.68 --)   Depth: 37/51   00:01:03  1001MN, tb=60449
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.60 ++)   Depth: 37/51   00:01:04  1011MN, tb=61256
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Qxb6 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Rf7+ Kd8 31.Be4 Qc6 32.Bxg7 Re8 33.Rd3 b4 34.Bxh6 Kc8 35.Bg7 Qxc2 36.Rc3+ Qxc3 37.Bxc3 bxc3 38.Rf3 Kd7 39.Bxd5 c2 40.Rc3 Bxd5 41.Rxc2 Rh8 42.Rc5 a4 43.Ra5 Ra8 44.Rxa8 Bxa8 45.h6 Be4 46.f3 Bh7 47.Kf2 a3 48.Ke3 
  -+  (-3.71)   Depth: 37/53   00:01:06  1037MN, tb=63497
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.62 ++)   Depth: 38/58   00:01:15  1188MN, tb=80968
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.54 ++)   Depth: 38/58   00:01:16  1204MN, tb=82796
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.42 ++)   Depth: 38/58   00:01:16  1207MN, tb=82877
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.24 ++)   Depth: 38/58   00:01:18  1236MN, tb=84314
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.79 --)   Depth: 38/58   00:01:21  1280MN, tb=89990
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.39 ++)   Depth: 38/58   00:01:50  1722MN, tb=158685
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.c3 a4 29.R4d3 Ke7 30.Bxg7 Rg8 31.Bxh6 Qxb6 32.Bg5+ Kd7 33.h6 Rf8 34.Bh4 Qc7 35.h7 Kc6 36.Be4 Kc5 37.f3 Kb6 38.Bf2+ Ka5 39.Bd4 Nf4 40.h8R Rxh8 41.Bxh8 Bxe4 42.fxe4 Nxd3 43.Rxd3 Qc6 44.Re3 a3 45.Bd4 Ka4 46.Re1 Kb3 47.Rb1+ Kc4 48.Ra1 b4 49.cxb4 Kxd4 
  -+  (-3.63)   Depth: 38/62   00:01:55  1796MN, tb=163531
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.55 ++)   Depth: 39/29   00:01:57  1825MN, tb=166270
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.47 ++)   Depth: 39/56   00:01:57  1828MN, tb=166332
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.c3 a4 29.R4d3 Ke7 30.Bxg7 Rg8 31.Bxh6 Qxb6 32.Bg5+ Kd7 33.h6 Rf8 34.Bh4 Qc7 35.h7 Kc6 36.Be4 Kb6 37.f3 Ka6 38.Bf2 Ka5 39.Bd4 Nf4 40.h8R Rxh8 41.Bxh8 Bxe4 42.fxe4 Nxd3 43.Rxd3 Qc6 44.Re3 a3 45.Be5 a2 46.Re1 Ka4 47.Bd4 Qc4 48.Bg7 Qc5+ 49.Bd4 
  -+  (-3.71)   Depth: 39/56   00:01:58  1851MN, tb=168299
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.62 ++)   Depth: 40/29   00:02:05  1943MN, tb=176954
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.54 ++)   Depth: 40/29   00:02:05  1945MN, tb=177381
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.42 ++)   Depth: 40/47   00:02:06  1962MN, tb=181582
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.24 ++)   Depth: 40/58   00:02:06  1964MN, tb=182173
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.c3 Qxb6 29.c4 bxc4 30.Rxc4 Ke7 31.Bxg7 Rc8 32.Rcd4 Ba6 33.Bxh6 Be2 34.Bg5+ Kf8 35.R1d2 Rc1+ 36.Kh2 Qc7+ 37.Bf4 Nxf4 38.Rd7 Qb8 39.Rd8+ Qxd8 40.Rxd8+ Kg7 41.Rd7+ Kf6 42.Ra7 Rc5 43.Rf7+ Kg5 44.Re7 e5 45.Bf7 Nxh5 46.Bb3 Nf6 47.Be6 Kg6 48.Bf7+ Kf5 49.Be6+ Ke4 50.Ra7 Kf4 51.Bh3 Ng4+ 52.Bxg4 Bxg4 
  -+  (-3.48)   Depth: 40/64   00:02:08  1993MN, tb=198751
24.Rd4 
  -+  (-3.39 ++)   Depth: 41/15   00:02:11  2036MN, tb=215808
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.56 --)   Depth: 41/45   00:02:19  2164MN, tb=233866
24.Ra3 
  -+  (-3.43 ++)   Depth: 41/45   00:02:36  2403MN, tb=262321
24.Ra3 
  -+  (-3.25 ++)   Depth: 41/45   00:02:37  2419MN, tb=263389
24.Ra3 
  -+  (-3.01 ++)   Depth: 41/45   00:02:37  2431MN, tb=264088
24.Ra3 
  -+  (-2.68 ++)   Depth: 41/45   00:02:39  2449MN, tb=265749
24.Ra3 Qxb4 
  -+  (-3.68 --)   Depth: 41/63   00:02:48  2584MN, tb=279423
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.c4 bxc4 27.Ra4 h5 28.Raxc4 Qa5 29.Rc1 Rh6 30.Be4 Qb5 31.Rb1 Qe2 32.Rc1 g6 33.Rc2 Qe1+ 34.Kh2 Rh7 35.Bg3 Rg7 36.f3 Qe3 37.Bf2 Qf4+ 38.Kg1 Qf6 39.Rdc4 a5 40.Bxd5 Bxd5 41.Rc7 Qa1+ 42.Rc1 Qb2 43.R1c2 Qb4 44.Rc1 a4 45.Ra7 a3 46.Rcc7 Rxc7 47.bxc7 Qc4 48.c8R+ Qxc8 
  -+  (-3.90)   Depth: 41/63   00:03:30  3190MN, tb=372227
  24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.98 --)   Depth: 42/28   00:04:07  3740MN, tb=488474
24.Rab1 
  -+  (-3.90 ++)   Depth: 42/54   00:04:43  4299MN, tb=587133
24.Rab1 
  -+  (-3.77 ++)   Depth: 42/54   00:04:48  4372MN, tb=600675
24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Qxb6 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Rf7+ Kd8 31.Be4 Qc6 32.Bxg7 Re8 33.Bxh6 Qc4 34.Re1 Qc3 35.Rd1 Qe5 36.Bf3 Kc8 37.Be3 Bc6 38.Bd4 Qg5 39.Rg7 Qf4 40.Bb2 b4 41.Rg4 Qf8 42.Rdd4 a4 43.Rc4 Kd7 44.Rg7+ Re7 45.h6 Rxg7 46.hxg7 Qe8 47.Rg4 
  -+  (-3.74)   Depth: 42/59   00:05:03  4591MN, tb=629507
24.Rd4 c5 
  -+  (-3.82 --)   Depth: 43/56   00:05:10  4690MN, tb=647617
24.Ra3 
  -+  (-3.74 ++)   Depth: 43/56   00:05:45  5224MN, tb=731700
24.Ra3 
  -+  (-3.62 ++)   Depth: 43/56   00:05:48  5267MN, tb=739823
24.Ra3 
  -+  (-3.44 ++)   Depth: 43/56   00:05:50  5294MN, tb=743447
24.Ra3 Qxb4 25.Rg3 Qe7 26.Be4 a5 27.Ra1 Nxb6 28.Rxa5 Nd7 29.Bxg7 Qxg7 30.Ra7 Qxg3 31.fxg3 Nc5 32.Bxc6 Bxc6 33.Rc7 Ne4 34.Rxc6 Kf7 35.g4 Rb8 36.Kh2 Kf6 37.Rc7 Ke5 38.Kh3 Rg8 39.Rb7 Kf4 40.g3+ Kf3 41.g5 hxg5 42.Rxb5 g4+ 43.Kh2 Rc8 44.Rb3+ Kf2 45.c4 Rxc4 46.Rb2+ Kf3 47.Rb3+ Nc3 48.h5 Rc7 49.Rb6 
  -+  (-3.52)   Depth: 43/62   00:06:05  5499MN, tb=880654
NNUE eval isn't used with hybrid because of the too high static and dynamic classical score, so h5 isn't found, not even nearly as fast as with pure NNUE eval.

Good finding of yours regards
Last edited by peter on Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Peter.

Jouni
Posts: 2241
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:15 pm

Re: Is "Pure" NNUE strong also in losing position?

Post by Jouni » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:24 pm

I tested Crystal with NNUE yesterday. It was VERY much worse than classic. No sense to use at all. I wonder why it's implemented? NNUE is for playing not for solving puzzles.
Jouni

peter
Posts: 2171
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Is "Pure" NNUE strong also in losing position?

Post by peter » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:47 pm

Jouni wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:24 pm
I tested Crystal with NNUE yesterday. It was VERY much worse than classic. No sense to use at all. I wonder why it's implemented? NNUE is for playing not for solving puzzles.
Did you look at the position above with Crystal NNUE checked and not checked, Jouni?
24.h5 is a clear single best move. With classical (or hybrid) eval not found within minutes, with NNUE at once. Same with Crystal as with Cfish.
Just see the outputs I copied above.
BTW LC0 finds h5 at once too.
Do you have another one move as good as 24.h5, at least nearly? 24.h5 is drawing with best play, everything else is losing.
It's a clear game changer regards
Peter.

Uri Blass
Posts: 8828
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Is "Pure" NNUE strong also in losing position?

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:07 am

Default stockfish with nnue and slow hardware(only 3 cores) can find h5 in less than 20 minutes.
I guess that it is hybrid evaluation.
I guess that with a fast hardware hybrid evaluation find h5 with less than 3 minutes.

I do not know how to use NNUE in a way that stockfish find it immediately.


FEN: 5qkr/1b4p1/pPp1p1Bp/1p1nB3/1P5P/8/2P2PP1/R2R2K1 w - - 0 24

Stockfish_20092822_x64_modern:
NNUE evaluation using nn-baeb9ef2d183.nnue enabled
1/1 00:01 165 93 -2.71 24.Rd4 Nxb6
2/2 00:01 214 121 -2.71 24.Rd4 Nxb6
3/3 00:01 281 159 -2.49 24.Rd4 h5 25.Rad1
4/4 00:01 873 494 -2.47 24.Rd4 Ne7 25.Rf4 Nxg6
5/6 00:01 2k 1k -3.10 24.Rd4 Qd8 25.h5 Qxb6 26.Rad1
6/6 00:01 7k 4k -3.26 24.h5 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.Bd4
7/7 00:01 9k 5k -4.01 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.Rd3 Qxb6 27.Rad1
8/12 00:01 16k 9k -3.40 24.Rd4 c5 25.Rg4 Nf6 26.Rg3 cxb4 27.Rd1
9/12 00:01 23k 13k -3.63 24.Rd4 Nxb6 25.Rf4 Qe7 26.Rf7 Qxf7 27.Bxf7+ Kxf7 28.Re1
10/14 00:01 38k 21k -3.71 24.Rd4 Nxb6 25.Rf4 Qe7 26.Rf7 Qxf7 27.Bxf7+ Kxf7 28.Rd1 Nd5 29.Rd4
11/15 00:01 62k 34k -3.25 24.h5 Qe7 25.Ra3 Qxb4 26.Rf3 Qe7 27.Rf7 Qxf7 28.Bxf7+ Kxf7
12/15 00:01 99k 54k -3.71 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 b4 27.Rg4 Nc3 28.Bxc3 bxc3 29.Be4 Qxb6 30.Bxb7
13/22 00:01 137k 73k -3.17 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 b4 27.Rad1 Qxb6 28.R1d3 a5 29.Rf3
14/22 00:01 236k 122k -3.19 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Qe7 27.Rad1 b4 28.Rg4 a5 29.Be4 a4 30.Re1 a3 31.Bd3 Qd7 32.Rxg7+ Qxg7
15/23 00:02 439k 216k -3.01 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Qxb6 27.Ra3 Qd8 28.Rg3 Bc6 29.Be4 Qd7 30.c4 bxc4 31.Rxc4 Bb5 32.Rc1
16/24 00:02 693k 322k -2.98 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 b4 27.Rad1 Qxb6 28.R1d3 Qa5 29.Be4 Kf8 30.Bg6 Ke7 31.Bxg7 Rg8 32.Bxh6 Kd7
17/28 00:02 933k 399k -3.05 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 b4 27.Rad1 Qxb6 28.R1d3 Qa5 29.Be4 Qd8 30.Rg3 Qe7 31.Bd3 a5 32.Rdg4 g5 33.hxg6 h5 34.Rd4
18/30 00:02 1,414k 550k -2.91 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 b4 27.Rad1 Qxb6 28.R1d3 Qa5 29.Rg3 Ne7 30.Rd6 Nc6 31.Rxe6 Qxe5 32.Rxe5 Nxe5 33.Re3 Nxg6 34.hxg6
19/32 00:02 2,356k 789k -3.36 24.Rd4 Nxb6 25.Rd6 Qc8 26.Rad1 Nd5 27.Bg3 c5 28.Re1 Nc7 29.bxc5 Bd5 30.Be5 a5 31.c6
20/5+ 00:03 2,442k 807k -3.28 24.Rd4
20/31+ 00:03 2,473k 813k -3.20 24.Rd4
20/31+ 00:03 2,483k 815k -3.07 24.Rd4
20/31 00:03 2,524k 822k -3.14 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 b4 27.Rad1 Qxb6 28.Rg4 Qc5 29.Bd3 Qf8 30.Ra1 Nf6 31.Bxf6 Qxf6 32.Re1 Bc8 33.Rxb4 Qd8 34.Rg4 Qe7
21/26+ 00:03 2,608k 838k -3.06 24.Rd4
21/26+ 00:03 2,666k 850k -2.98 24.Rd4
21/30+ 00:03 2,777k 871k -2.86 24.Rd4
21/30- 00:03 2,876k 890k -3.23 24.Rd4 c5
21/31+ 00:03 3,148k 938k -2.95 24.Rd4
21/31 00:03 3,260k 956k -2.86 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 Qxb6 28.c4 bxc4 29.Rxc4 Qb5 30.Rdd4 Ke7 31.Bxg7 Rc8 32.Rxc8 Bxc8 33.Rd2 Bd7 34.Bxh6 Nf6 35.Be3 Nxh5
22/31+ 00:04 4,573k 1,131k -2.78 24.Rd4
22/31+ 00:04 5,009k 1,180k -2.70 24.Rd4
22/31- 00:04 5,448k 1,223k -2.94 24.Rd4 c5
22/34+ 00:04 5,917k 1,262k -2.75 24.Rd4
22/34- 00:04 6,383k 1,301k -3.12 24.Rd4 c5
22/35+ 00:04 6,478k 1,307k -2.81 24.Rd4
22/35 00:04 6,558k 1,313k -2.94 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Ke7 29.Bxg7 Rg8 30.Bxh6 Qxb6 31.Bg5+ Kd7 32.h6 Kc8 33.Rf3 Qc6 34.h7 Rh8 35.c3 Kc7 36.Be4 Kb6 37.Bh4 a4
23/34+ 00:05 6,872k 1,338k -2.86 24.Rd4
23/34+ 00:05 7,074k 1,353k -2.77 24.Rd4
23/34 00:05 7,152k 1,359k -2.75 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Ke7 29.Bxg7 Rg8 30.Bxh6 a4 31.Bg5+ Kd7 32.Be3 Qc4 33.c3 Kc8 34.Bf7 Nxe3 35.Bxg8 Nxd1 36.Rxd1 Qxc3
24/38- 00:05 7,717k 1,398k -2.84 24.Rd4 c5
24/40- 00:05 8,233k 1,425k -2.92 24.Rd4 c5
24/40- 00:06 9,562k 1,495k -3.04 24.Rd4 c5
24/40- 00:07 11,854k 1,592k -3.22 24.Rd4 c5
24/40+ 00:07 12,033k 1,595k -3.08 24.Rd4
24/40 00:07 12,113k 1,598k -3.14 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Qxb6 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Rf7+ Kd8 31.Bxg7 Rg8 32.Bh7 Re8 33.Be4 Kc8 34.Bxh6 Bc6 35.Bg7 Nc3 36.Bxc6 Qxc6 37.Re1 Nd5 38.h6 Qxc2 39.Be5 b4 40.h7 Qd2 41.Kf1
25/44+ 00:08 14,786k 1,655k -3.06 24.Rd4
25/44- 00:09 14,991k 1,653k -3.22 24.Rd4 c5
25/44- 00:10 18,483k 1,738k -3.35 24.Rd4 c5
25/44+ 00:10 18,549k 1,739k -3.22 24.Rd4
25/44+ 00:10 18,733k 1,741k -2.98 24.Rd4
25/44 00:10 19,029k 1,746k -2.90 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.c4 bxc4 27.Ra4 Qxb6 28.Raxc4 Kf8 29.h5 Ke7 30.Bxg7 Rc8 31.Rxc8 Bxc8 32.Rg4 Qd6 33.Rd4 Qc5 34.Rd1 Nf4 35.Bxh6 Qe5
26/36- 00:11 20,996k 1,780k -2.99 24.Rd4 c5
26/36- 00:11 21,272k 1,783k -3.07 24.Rd4 c5
26/40- 00:12 23,551k 1,816k -3.19 24.Rd4 c5
26/40+ 00:13 24,153k 1,822k -3.09 24.Rd4
26/47- 00:14 25,989k 1,850k -3.37 24.Rd4 c5
26/47+ 00:14 26,036k 1,850k -3.11 24.Rd4
26/47 00:14 26,058k 1,850k -3.09 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.c4 bxc4 27.Ra4 h5 28.Raxc4 Qa5 29.Rc1 Rh6 30.Be4 Qb5 31.Rb1 Qc5 32.Rd3 Qc4 33.Rd4 Qa2 34.Re1 Qa3 35.Rb1 a5 36.Rc4 Qe7 37.Rb3 Qd7 38.Rc1 Ba6 39.Bb2 a4 40.Rg3 Nxb6 41.Rxg7+ Qxg7
27/44- 00:14 28,008k 1,879k -3.17 24.Rd4 c5
27/44- 00:15 30,013k 1,897k -3.25 24.Rd4 c5
27/44- 00:17 33,909k 1,934k -3.38 24.Rd4 c5
27/44+ 00:18 36,621k 1,955k -3.27 24.Rd4
27/47 00:19 39,093k 1,978k -3.05 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.c4 bxc4 27.Ra4 h5 28.Raxc4 Qa5 29.Rc1 Rh6 30.Be4 Qb5 31.Rb1 Qe2 32.Rc1 Kf7 33.Rdc4 Nxb6 34.Rc7+ Ke8 35.Rxb7 Qxe4 36.Rxb6 Qxe5 37.Rb7 Kd8 38.Rd1+ Kc8 39.Rbb1 Qf4 40.Rbc1+ Kb7 41.Rb1+ Kc7 42.Rbc1+ Kb6 43.Rb1+ Kc5 44.Rdc1+ Kd5
28/18- 00:20 40,630k 1,989k -3.13 24.Rd4 c5
28/18- 00:21 42,204k 1,997k -3.22 24.Rd4 c5
28/18- 00:21 43,634k 2,008k -3.34 24.Rd4 c5
28/50+ 00:22 44,402k 2,013k -3.24 24.Rd4
28/53 00:22 44,883k 2,015k -3.44 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.c4 bxc4 27.Ra4 h5 28.Raxc4 Qa5 29.Rc1 Rh6 30.Be4 Qb5 31.Rb1 Qe2 32.Rc1 Kf7 33.Rdc4 Nxb6 34.Rc7+ Ke8 35.Rxb7 Qxe4 36.Rxb6 Qxe5 37.Rb7 Kd8 38.Rd1+ Kc8 39.Rbb1 Qf6 40.Rdc1+ Kd7 41.Rb7+ Kd6 42.Rb6+ Ke5 43.Rb4 Rg6 44.Rc5+ Kd6 45.Ra5 Qc3 46.Rxa6+ Ke7 47.Rb7+ Kf6
29/43+ 00:23 46,771k 2,028k -3.36 24.Rd4
29/43+ 00:23 47,053k 2,029k -3.28 24.Rd4
29/43+ 00:23 47,392k 2,030k -3.15 24.Rd4
29/43 00:23 48,182k 2,034k -3.17 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.c4 bxc4 27.Ra4 Qxb6 28.Raxc4 Kf8 29.Rd1 Ke7 30.Rb1 Qa7 31.Be4 Kd7 32.Bd4 Qa8 33.Bxg7 Rc8 34.Rxc8 Qxc8 35.Bxh6 Bc6 36.Rc1 a5 37.h5 a4 38.Be3 a3 39.Bxd5
30/40- 00:25 52,711k 2,042k -3.25 24.Rd4 c5
30/40+ 00:26 54,976k 2,046k -3.17 24.Rd4
30/40+ 00:27 56,532k 2,044k -3.04 24.Rd4
30/44 00:28 57,073k 2,036k -3.02 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.c4 bxc4 27.Ra4 h5 28.Raxc4 Qa5 29.Rc1 Rh6 30.Be4 Qb5 31.Rb1 Qe2 32.Rc1 a5 33.Rc7 Nxc7 34.bxc7 Rg6 35.Bg3 Rxg3 36.fxg3 Qb2 37.Bxb7 Qc1+ 38.Kh2 Qxc7 39.Be4 Kf7 40.Bf3 g6 41.Re4 Qb6 42.Be2 Qb2 43.Bf3 Qa1 44.Rc4 a4 45.Rc6
31/49- 00:29 60,375k 2,043k -3.10 24.Rd4 c5
31/52+ 00:31 64,074k 2,059k -3.02 24.Rd4
31/52- 00:31 64,453k 2,061k -3.18 24.Rd4 c5
31/52- 00:38 80,203k 2,109k -3.36 24.Rd4 c5
31/52+ 00:38 81,069k 2,113k -3.20 24.Rd4
31/52 00:38 81,363k 2,114k -3.25 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.c4 bxc4 27.Ra4 h5 28.Raxc4 Qa5 29.Rc1 Rh6 30.Be4 Qb5 31.Rb1 Qe2 32.Rc1 Kf7 33.Rc2 Qe1+ 34.Kh2 Rh8 35.Bg3 Rc8 36.Rc7+ Rxc7 37.bxc7 Qa5 38.Bf3 g6 39.Rc4 Bc8 40.Be2 Qa1 41.Re4 Qb1 42.Rc4 a5 43.Be5
32/50+ 00:39 82,995k 2,120k -3.17 24.Rd4
32/50- 00:39 84,581k 2,126k -3.33 24.Rd4 c5
32/52- 00:43 93,560k 2,154k -3.46 24.Rd4 c5
32/52 00:57 123,957k 2,159k -3.63 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.c4 bxc4 27.Ra4 h5 28.Raxc4 Qa5 29.Rc1 Rh6 30.Be4 Qb5 31.Rb1 Qe2 32.Rc1 Kf7 33.Rc2 Qe1+ 34.Kh2 Rh8 35.Bg3 Rc8 36.Rc7+ Rxc7 37.bxc7 Qa5 38.Bf3 Qc5 39.Rd2 a5 40.Bxh5+ g6 41.Bd1 Qb4 42.Ra2 Nc3 43.Rd2 a4 44.Bf3 Nd5 45.Bxd5 exd5 46.Rxd5 a3 47.Rd6 Qb1 48.Rd8
33/48+ 01:05 141,703k 2,153k -3.55 24.Rd4
33/48+ 01:05 142,005k 2,154k -3.47 24.Rd4
33/48+ 01:06 142,398k 2,154k -3.34 24.Rd4
33/48+ 01:06 143,353k 2,155k -3.16 24.Rd4
33/48 01:07 144,828k 2,151k -3.10 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Qxb6 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Rf7+ Kd8 31.Be4 Bc6 32.Bd4 Qb8 33.c4 bxc4 34.Rb1 Qc8 35.Bxg7 Rg8 36.Be5 Ne7 37.Bg6 Be8 38.Rh7 Bxg6 39.hxg6 Rxg6 40.Rb6
34/48- 01:08 146,755k 2,147k -3.18 24.Rd4 c5
34/51+ 01:12 154,074k 2,133k -3.10 24.Rd4
34/51- 01:13 157,409k 2,132k -3.26 24.Rd4 c5
34/52- 01:22 174,987k 2,121k -3.44 24.Rd4 c5
34/52- 01:32 197,115k 2,135k -3.68 24.Rd4 c5
34/59+ 01:41 216,904k 2,143k -3.48 24.Rd4
34/59 01:52 242,022k 2,159k -3.75 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.Rg4 Ke7 29.Bd4 Qb4 30.Bf5 Rf8 31.Bxg7 Rxf5 32.Rxb4 Nxb4 33.Ra1 Rg5 34.Bxh6 Rxh5 35.Rxa5 Nc6 36.Bd2 Nxa5 37.Bxa5 Kd7 38.f3 Rh4 39.Be1 Ra4 40.Kf2 Ra2 41.Ke3 Rxc2 42.g4 Bxf3 43.g5 Re2+ 44.Kf4 Rxe1
35/52+ 02:07 276,358k 2,167k -3.66 24.Rd4
35/52+ 02:07 276,573k 2,167k -3.58 24.Rd4
35/52- 02:13 288,736k 2,170k -3.83 24.Rd4 c5
35/52+ 02:22 309,889k 2,172k -3.64 24.Rd4
35/52+ 02:24 313,570k 2,171k -3.39 24.Rd4
35/52 02:24 314,842k 2,172k -3.48 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rd3 Qxb6 28.Rad1 Ke7 29.Bxg7 Rf8 30.R1d2 Rf4 31.Rg3 Qa5 32.Rd1 Nf6 33.Bxh6 Rd4 34.Rxd4 Qa1+ 35.Bc1 Qxc1+ 36.Kh2 a5 37.Rh4 Qh6 38.Bd3 Bc6 39.Rg6 Qd2 40.Kg1 Kf7 41.h6 Qe1+ 42.Kh2 Qxf2 43.Rg7+ Kf8
36/44- 02:27 320,269k 2,175k -3.56 24.Rd4 c5
36/48- 02:30 328,682k 2,179k -3.64 24.Rd4 c5
36/48- 02:39 348,000k 2,186k -3.77 24.Rd4 c5
36/57+ 02:51 376,219k 2,195k -3.66 24.Rd4
36/57+ 02:52 377,865k 2,195k -3.42 24.Rd4
36/62+ 02:54 382,434k 2,195k -3.09 24.Rd4
36/62 02:54 382,940k 2,195k -3.18 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Qxb6 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Rf7+ Kd8 31.Be4 Qc6 32.Bxg7 Rg8 33.Bxh6 Kc8 34.c4 Qe8 35.Bg6 bxc4 36.Rf8 Qxf8 37.Bxf8 Rxf8 38.Rc1 Nb6 39.Kf1 Kd7 40.Rb1 Kc6 41.h6 Kc5 42.g4 a4 43.Bc2 a3 44.Ra1 Ra8 45.g5 a2 46.g6 Kd4
37/52- 02:56 388,735k 2,197k -3.26 24.Rd4 c5
37/52- 03:02 400,160k 2,197k -3.34 24.Rd4 c5
37/52- 03:11 419,814k 2,197k -3.47 24.Rd4 c5
37/52 03:21 442,861k 2,200k -3.40 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.R4d3 Qxb6 29.Rf3+ Ke7 30.Rf7+ Kd8 31.Be4 Qc6 32.Bxg7 Re8 33.Bxh6 Qc4 34.Re1 Bc6 35.Bd2 a4 36.h6 a3 37.h7 a2 38.Ra7 Kc8 39.Bd3 Qd4 40.Rxa2 Rf8 41.Re2 Nf4 42.Bxf4 Rxf4 43.g3 Rf7 44.Ra6 Kb7 45.Rxc6 Kxc6 46.Rxe6+ Kd5
38/60- 03:26 456,353k 2,205k -3.49 24.Rd4 c5
38/76- 03:33 470,629k 2,208k -3.57 24.Rd4 c5
38/76- 03:44 493,666k 2,197k -3.69 24.Rd4 c5
38/76- 04:33 602,311k 2,204k -3.87 24.Rd4 c5
38/76 05:33 742,650k 2,228k -3.84 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.c4 bxc4 27.Ra4 h5 28.Raxc4 Qa5 29.Rc1 Rh6 30.Be4 Qb5 31.Rb1 Qe2 32.Rc1 Kf7 33.Bg3 Qb2 34.Rdd1 Kg8 35.Rb1 Qa2 36.Ra1 Qe2 37.Bf3 Qb5 38.Rab1 Qe8 39.Be5 a5 40.Rd4 Qc6 41.Be4 Kf7 42.Rd3 Qc4
39/50- 05:48 780,945k 2,239k -3.92 24.Rd4 c5
39/54+ 05:49 783,518k 2,240k -3.84 24.Rd4
39/54+ 05:50 785,679k 2,241k -3.72 24.Rd4
39/54- 06:05 818,754k 2,242k -4.00 24.Rd4 c5
39/59+ 06:10 832,307k 2,244k -3.77 24.Rd4
39/59 06:11 834,877k 2,245k -3.83 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.c4 bxc4 27.Ra4 h5 28.Raxc4 Qa5 29.Rc1 Rh6 30.Be4 Qb5 31.Rb1 Qe2 32.Rc1 Kf7 33.Bg3 Qb2 34.Rdd1 Kg8 35.Rb1 Qa2 36.Ra1 Qe2 37.Bf3 Qb5 38.Rab1 Qc4 39.Rdc1 Qd3 40.Rd1 Qa3 41.Ra1 Qc3 42.Rac1 Qb4 43.Rb1 Qe7 44.Rdc1 a5 45.Ra1 Qb4 46.Rab1
40/53- 06:29 876,248k 2,249k -3.91 24.Rd4 c5
40/56- 06:53 933,934k 2,261k -3.99 24.Rd4 c5
40/56+ 06:59 949,385k 2,263k -3.91 24.Rd4
40/56 07:07 967,788k 2,266k -3.93 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.c4 bxc4 27.Ra4 h5 28.Raxc4 Qa5 29.Rc1 Rh6 30.Be4 Qb5 31.Rb1 Qe2 32.Rc1 Kf7 33.Bg3 Qb2 34.Rdd1 Kg8 35.Rb1 Qa2 36.Ra1 Qe2 37.Bf3 Qb5 38.Rab1 Qa4 39.Ra1 Qb4 40.Rab1 Qa3 41.Be5 a5 42.Rd4 Qa2 43.Be4 Qe2 44.Rc1 Qa6 45.Rb1 a4
41/54+ 07:22 1,005,955k 2,273k -3.85 24.Rd4
41/59- 07:44 1,061,338k 2,284k -4.01 24.Rd4 c5
41/64+ 08:20 1,145,471k 2,290k -3.89 24.Rd4
41/64 09:03 1,243,765k 2,289k -4.03 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.Rg4 Ke7 29.Bd4 Qb4 30.Bf5 Rf8 31.Bxg7 Rxf5 32.Rxb4 Nxb4 33.Ra1 Rg5 34.Bxh6 Rxh5 35.Bd2 Rd5 36.Bh6 Nc6 37.c4 bxc4 38.Rc1 Ne5 39.Bf4 Nd3 40.Rxc4 Nxf4 41.Rxf4 Kd6 42.Ra4 Rc5 43.Ra1 Kc6 44.f3 Kxb6 45.Kf2 Bd5 46.Kg3 Rc7 47.Ra3 Rc8 48.Re3 Rg8+ 49.Kh2
42/45+ 09:13 1,267,293k 2,289k -3.95 24.Rd4
42/45+ 09:15 1,271,725k 2,289k -3.87 24.Rd4
42/45+ 09:17 1,275,168k 2,289k -3.75 24.Rd4
42/45+ 09:18 1,278,074k 2,289k -3.57 24.Rd4
42/51 09:19 1,281,874k 2,290k -3.93 24.Rd4 c5 25.bxc5 Qxc5 26.h5 Kf8 27.Rad1 a5 28.Rg4 Ke7 29.Bd4 Qb4 30.Bf5 Rf8 31.Bxg7 Rxf5 32.Rxb4 Nxb4 33.g4 Rf4 34.Bxh6 Rxg4+ 35.Kf1 Nd5 36.Bd2 Kd6 37.Bxa5 Rh4 38.Rxd5+ exd5 39.f4 Rxh5 40.Ke2 Kc5 41.c3 Rh6 42.f5 Rh5 43.Kd2 Rxf5 44.Bb4+ Kc6
43/54- 09:42 1,337,203k 2,294k -4.01 24.Rd4 c5
43/54+ 10:10 1,404,339k 2,299k -3.93 24.Rd4
43/54+ 10:42 1,478,900k 2,302k -3.80 24.Ra3
43/54+ 10:47 1,491,230k 2,302k -3.62 24.Ra3
43/67- 12:09 1,687,239k 2,313k -4.09 24.Ra3 Qxb4
43/72+ 19:43 2,775,273k 2,346k -3.74 24.h5
43/72+ 19:43 2,775,754k 2,346k -3.30 24.h5
43/72+ 19:53 2,800,703k 2,346k -2.74 24.h5
43/72 20:12 2,843,786k 2,346k -2.67 24.h5 Qxb4 25.Re1 Nxb6 26.Rad1 Nd5 27.Re4 Qe7 28.c4 bxc4 29.Rxc4 Qg5 30.Bd6 Qd8 31.Bg3 Qd7 32.Re4 Qe7 33.Rc4 a5 34.Bh4 Qd7 35.Bg3 Bc8 36.Ra4 Kf8 37.Rxa5 Ke7 38.Rda1 Bb7 39.Rb1 Ra8 40.Rxa8 Bxa8 41.Rb8 Qa7 42.Rg8 Qa1+ 43.Kh2 Nf6 44.Rxg7+ Kd8 45.Rf7 Nd7 46.Bh4+ Kc8 47.Re7 Qd1 48.Bg3 e5 49.Bxe5 Nxe5 50.Rxe5
44/50+ 20:16 2,852,783k 2,346k -2.59 24.h5
44/54+ 20:22 2,868,159k 2,345k -2.50 24.h5

peter
Posts: 2171
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Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Is "Pure" NNUE strong also in losing position?

Post by peter » Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:47 am

Uri Blass wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:07 am
Default stockfish with nnue and slow hardware(only 3 cores) can find h5 in less than 20 minutes.
I guess that it is hybrid evaluation.
I guess that with a fast hardware hybrid evaluation find h5 with less than 3 minutes.

I do not know how to use NNUE in a way that stockfish find it immediately.
Then you didn't read my long posting and didn't look at the outpus I pasted, did you?

viewtopic.php?p=863614#p863614

You have to try a branch with pure NNUE eval, like Cfish, Jörg Oster's NNUE allways, dkappes NetRunner, Crystal or take a dev.- version before start of September.
As I showed also, Cfish with hybrid NNUE eval didn't find h5 at a single try started with empty hash under 5 minutes, just gave SF12 a try right now again with Stéfane Nicolet's net I used yesterday too, no h5 <3 minutes with the hardware I used yesterday neither, yet not the most modern one of course, only SSE4.1- popcnt.
And it could well be of course too, it depends on the net as well.

Could well be also, it's more NNUE- luck necessary to get h5 with hybrid eval sooner than within 3 minute now and then also, just depending on the course of the eval bringing NNUE treshold into counting sooner or later.
Point is, there isn't a thing called hybrid eval as an eval on its own, it's either NNUE eval or classical eval, the difference called "hybrid" is just a matter of two treshold- boundaries deciding between the one or the other one.
So if you really want to see the difference between NNUE eval and classical eval here, you just have to check or uncheck NNUE usage.
Peter.

Jouni
Posts: 2241
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:15 pm

Re: Is "Pure" NNUE strong also in losing position?

Post by Jouni » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:53 pm

One position is nothing. But I tested in Arasan suite. Crystal classic solved 191/200 but NNUE only 182! Same result in other suite.
Jouni

peter
Posts: 2171
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Is "Pure" NNUE strong also in losing position?

Post by peter » Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:52 pm

Jouni wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:53 pm
One position is nothing. But I tested in Arasan suite. Crystal classic solved 191/200 but NNUE only 182! Same result in other suite.
A single position has to be solved (has to have a best move, provable as such or not) as well as any other one single position.
I didn't say NNUE eval is always better, I didn't say NNUE eval is better in all tactical test suites and I didn't say NNUE is better in Crystal in all positions nor in all tactical test suites.
But in the given single position of this one thread (which is a position of a fine single one game changer as solution- move) NNUE is better for Crystal and for all other fishes I tried so far, for all fishes I could try so, pure NNUE eval was better then hybrid eval.
Period regards
:)
Peter.

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MikeB
Posts: 4488
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Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: Is "Pure" NNUE strong also in losing position?

Post by MikeB » Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:31 pm

Marcus9 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:23 pm
I was analyzing a match played between Cfish with pure NNUE eval vs rybka 1.0 started with knight odd in a blitz game (2'+1"), to understand if the NNUE are good for playing losing position



In this position NNUE eval found h5 with -1.5 score instead Rd4 as second best with -3.2 score.
I also analyzed the position with classical eval and komodo (classic and MCTS) but none found h4.

If you're wondering CFish has won the game.

I would like to hear the opinion of those who are more experienced than me in this analysis
BD 12 r1
33 secs to find h4 , then after 8 minutes

info depth 40 seldepth 78 multipv 1 score cp -30 nodes 32408403606 nps 76039116 hashfull 989 tbhits 257969 tme 426207 pv h4h5 f8b4 d1d3 b4e7 a1e1 c6c5 e5g3 g8f8 d3d1 b5b4 f2f4 e7d6 g3f2 f8e7 f4f5 e7d7 f5e6 d7c6 e6e7 6b6 e7e8q h8e8 g6e8 b7c6 e8f7 a6a5 d1d3 b6b5 e1d1 b5c4 d3e3 a5a4 f2g3 d6d7 f7e6 d7a7 e3d3 a7a8 g3d6 a4a3 e6f a3a2 d6e5 a8b7 f7e6 c4b5 e6d5 c6d5 d3d5 b7f7 e5b2 b5c6
info depth 41 currmove h4h5 currmovenumber 1
info depth 41 seldepth 59 multipv 1 score cp -16 lowerbound nodes 35762968862 nps 75911174 hashfull 990 tbhits 297536 time 471116 pv h4h5
info depth 41 currmove h4h5 currmovenumber 1
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info depth 41 seldepth 59 multipv 1 score cp -16 nodes 36898158944 nps 75850813 hashfull 990 tbhits 314723 time 486457 pv h4h5
bestmove h4h5 ponder f8b4
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peter
Posts: 2171
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Is "Pure" NNUE strong also in losing position?

Post by peter » Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:45 pm

MikeB wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:31 pm

BD 12 r1
33 secs to find h4
You mean h5.
Any presearch (Pro Analysis)?
Peter.

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