Final Release of Ethereal, V12.75

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Dann Corbit, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Dann Corbit
Posts: 11904
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Final Release of Ethereal, V12.75

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:41 am

AndrewGrant wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:22 am
An hour after I make this post I'm filled with regret.

[1] Do people really want to see a bunch of NNUE engines, all running the same evaluation function, occupying the top slots of computer chess?
Maybe it would be interesting to learn what the networks are doing that the hand tuned evaluations are not doing.
There must be a reason that they are tearing everyone's heads off and playing soccer with them. Maybe if we started doing the important things we are overlooking, we would not see the enormous gap.
As far as the same evaluation function, every net seems to create different results. There must be a reason for that too.
[2] Would people really find it interesting to have Ethereal use whatever "best" network is out there?
It is interesting if you hand tune. It is interesting if you use a net. Why not understand what the nets are doing and make a better way of net creation? Perhaps there is a way to use the hardware better. Perhaps there is a way to train them better.
[3] Are people still interested when engines replace 50% of what made them unique?
I like weak engines. I like strong engines. I like hand tuned engines. I like programatically tuned engines.
[4] Do people want to continue to have Ethereal, acting as a Stockfish-lite, for new programmers?
Ethereal is a very interesting project. I like the code. I like the engine. I don't care if you ever pass LC0 and Stockfish. I will like Ethereal the same whether it becomes the strongest engine in the world or it does not do that.
[5] Is Chess doomed to go the route of Shogi and Go? We share the Networks, but have our own searches? Is that okay?
I do not think it is bad, what is happening with Shogi and Go. Both of those games are much harder than chess and they invented this incredible NNUE stuff. I do not dislike NNUE, but I also do not think it is necessary to use it if you don't want to.
[6] Is this chess world okay with me plunking in a Network file and never changing it again?
I am OK with you doing anything that you like. If you want to pursue eval, go ahead. I think your efforts are better spent on search if you want to win, but if you are pursuing art and beauty then that is probably irrelevant.
If someone can convince me of all of those things, or at least most of them, then maybe there is still work to be done. The OCD in me likes the idea of refactoring all of the garbage in the NNUE libs. Likes to idea of coming up with a cleaner solution than what I did to hack the code in with such speed. I'de have to look at benchmarks. If NNUE is the "great equalizer", then its of little substance. But if NNUE is +160 elo flat across the board, then maybe its not the end of the world.

At the same time, NOT quitting goes against everything I've preached in this forum for the last few years. I don't even like people using Ethereal data to tune their engines. Alayan and I were going to release datasets to go with my tuning paper, but I did not like the idea of people converging to Ethereal. But now its okay that I drag and drop 2,000 lines from Stockfish? Its okay that I just run whatever Network Fishtest has brewing or Dkappe has brewing or someone else?

I'm not a net trainer. I won't do it, its not interesting. Ethereal's tuner has lots of things akin to net training. Lots of knobs to tweak. but it is a means to and ends, and that ends is putting human chess knowledge into the engine. The ends of Network training is to get a "better" black box.

I don't know if I'm ripping myself away from something I love for no reason. If I'm doing it because I see the pain in the future. If I'm doing it because I feel the pain now but am too daft to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I need someone to convince me that this hobby is still worth pursuing. That beating Leela and Allie and Scorpio is worth something. That doing so is not just a result of NNUE, but also a result of the ten thousand hours I've put into the project. That I'm not sacrificing my ideals and my principles by continuing on in this new era.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

User avatar
towforce
Posts: 10694
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:57 pm
Location: Birmingham UK

Re: Final Release of Ethereal, V12.75

Post by towforce » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:42 am

AndrewGrant wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:22 am
If someone can convince me of all of those things, or at least most of them, then maybe there is still work to be done.
I need someone to convince me that this hobby is still worth pursuing.

You're asking for leadership. If someone was as good a leader as you're asking for, they've probably already got a team working for them somewhere.

You are able to apply yourself for long hours, and produce good results doing so. Maybe you should decide what you'd like to do, find your favourite organisation that's doing that, and offer yourself to the leader of that organisation?

The future is more important than the past: you may need to let go of your past so that you can have the future you deserve.
Writing is the antidote to confusion

Branko Radovanovic
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:12 pm

Re: Final Release of Ethereal, V12.75

Post by Branko Radovanovic » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:42 am

Dann Corbit wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:53 am
flok wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:47 am
Imho "choose life instead of chess programming" is a stupid remark. Something that is fun to do IS life.
What if it is no longer fun for you. What then?
Let me quote Slavoj Zizek:
For example, let’s be serious: when you are in a creative endeavor, in that wonderful fever--“My God, I’m onto something!” and so on--, happiness doesn't enter it. You are ready to suffer. Sometimes scientists--I read history of quantum physics or earlier of radiation--were even ready to take into account the possibility that they will die because of some radiation and so on.
So, one doesn't choose life instead of a creative endeavor, and no, it's not a matter of fun versus no fun either. It's about that "wonderful fever" - if it's gone, it's perhaps time to try and find it elsewhere.

Andrew should know that his accomplishments in computer chess will always be admired. Very few people have done more in their entire lifetimes.

Alayan
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:48 pm
Full name: Alayan Feh

Re: Final Release of Ethereal, V12.75

Post by Alayan » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:47 am

Gabor Szots wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:35 am
I don't understand this gloom about NNUE. It's just a new evaluation term. Search is still there. Even if all engines implement SF NNUE's the rankings will remain, you only have to add 300 to the current one.
It's not "a new evaluation term". A new evalution term doesn't discard the rest of the eval, it doesn't kill eval originality. It's a drop-in eval replacement.

Hrvoje Horvatic
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:53 pm

Re: Final Release of Ethereal, V12.75

Post by Hrvoje Horvatic » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:52 am

AndrewGrant wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:22 am
I don't know if I'm ripping myself away from something I love for no reason. If I'm doing it because I see the pain in the future. If I'm doing it because I feel the pain now but am too daft to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I need someone to convince me that this hobby is still worth pursuing. That beating Leela and Allie and Scorpio is worth something. That doing so is not just a result of NNUE, but also a result of the ten thousand hours I've put into the project. That I'm not sacrificing my ideals and my principles by continuing on in this new era.
I look at the appearance of ANN-based engines as a "call to action"... you either quit, or rise to the occasion... "business as usual" is not possible...

no one can convince you that this hobby is still worth pursuing, because it personal... is it worth TO YOU? but this ANN-based engines CAN be beaten, and I'm going to do it... there are things that ANNs just can't learn, not everything can be statistically summarised in a simplistic, ANN way...

ANNs can be beaten, but it's a tough job, it isn't for everybody...

User avatar
xr_a_y
Posts: 1397
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:28 pm
Location: France

Re: Final Release of Ethereal, V12.75

Post by xr_a_y » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:52 am

Alayan wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:47 am
Gabor Szots wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:35 am
I don't understand this gloom about NNUE. It's just a new evaluation term. Search is still there. Even if all engines implement SF NNUE's the rankings will remain, you only have to add 300 to the current one.
It's not "a new evaluation term". A new evalution term doesn't discard the rest of the eval, it doesn't kill eval originality. It's a drop-in eval replacement.
With a technology invented in the 90s (https://www.chessprogramming.org/Tempor ... 8.CE.BB.29). This outcome was very much expected no ?

Dann Corbit
Posts: 11904
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Final Release of Ethereal, V12.75

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:55 am

Branko Radovanovic wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:42 am
Dann Corbit wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:53 am
flok wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:47 am
Imho "choose life instead of chess programming" is a stupid remark. Something that is fun to do IS life.
What if it is no longer fun for you. What then?
Let me quote Slavoj Zizek:
For example, let’s be serious: when you are in a creative endeavor, in that wonderful fever--“My God, I’m onto something!” and so on--, happiness doesn't enter it. You are ready to suffer. Sometimes scientists--I read history of quantum physics or earlier of radiation--were even ready to take into account the possibility that they will die because of some radiation and so on.
So, one doesn't choose life instead of a creative endeavor, and no, it's not a matter of fun versus no fun either. It's about that "wonderful fever" - if it's gone, it's perhaps time to try and find it elsewhere.

Andrew should know that his accomplishments in computer chess will always be admired. Very few people have done more in their entire lifetimes.
I have to admit this is a very good point.
I have great admiration for people like Anthony Van Leewenhook, who would go up to people on the street and ask them if he could scrape their nasty teeth to look at it in his microscope and William Hershel who made molten metal mirrors in his own house and nearly razed it to the ground so that he could look at the stars.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Gabor Szots
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:43 am
Location: Szentendre, Hungary
Full name: Gabor Szots

Re: Final Release of Ethereal, V12.75

Post by Gabor Szots » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:56 am

Alayan wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:47 am
It's not "a new evaluation term". A new evalution term doesn't discard the rest of the eval, it doesn't kill eval originality. It's a drop-in eval replacement.
Is there no way for originality in NNUE development?
Gabor Szots
CCRL testing group

User avatar
towforce
Posts: 10694
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:57 pm
Location: Birmingham UK

Re: Final Release of Ethereal, V12.75

Post by towforce » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:56 am

AndrewGrant wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:22 am
An hour after I make this post I'm filled with regret.

This could be separation anxiety.
Writing is the antidote to confusion

Dann Corbit
Posts: 11904
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Final Release of Ethereal, V12.75

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:02 am

Hrvoje Horvatic wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:52 am
ANNs can be beaten, but it's a tough job, it isn't for everybody...
John Henry drove his steel 13 feet and the steam drill drove only nine.
But the end of the song goes,
"And he laid down his hammer and he died."

Now, it may be possible to do better than the ANN approach.
But first, I think, we have to understand why they are beating the hand tuned approach.
Right now, we have no clue.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Post Reply