Future of computer chess: 2 top engines?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: Harvey Williamson, Dann Corbit, hgm

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
syzygy
Posts: 4820
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:56 pm

Re: Future of computer chess: 2 top engines?

Post by syzygy » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:35 pm

Jouni wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:40 am
I fear, that soon we have only 2 top engines. Stockfish + derivates and Lc0 + derivates. I hope to be wrong :) .
For many years Rybka was the only top engine.

Madeleine Birchfield
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:29 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Full name: Madeleine Birchfield

Re: Future of computer chess: 2 top engines?

Post by Madeleine Birchfield » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:42 pm

Ozymandias wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:14 pm
Komodo 11.2 is only 26 Elo points behind version 14, at CCRL 40/15. It was released on July 17, 2017. SF had been the clear number one for over a year, by the time Lc0 matured, and now it is again; this last T60 run has been rather disappointing, not to mention incredibly long.
The main reason why Leela is somewhat competitive in TCEC is because Leela has oursourced net training to jhorthos and the J92 nets are better than the T60 nets. But even then it is weaker than Stockfish.

User avatar
Ozymandias
Posts: 1243
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:30 am

Re: Future of computer chess: 2 top engines?

Post by Ozymandias » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:04 pm

Madeleine Birchfield wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:42 pm
Ozymandias wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:14 pm
Komodo 11.2 is only 26 Elo points behind version 14, at CCRL 40/15. It was released on July 17, 2017. SF had been the clear number one for over a year, by the time Lc0 matured, and now it is again; this last T60 run has been rather disappointing, not to mention incredibly long.
The main reason why Leela is somewhat competitive in TCEC is because Leela has oursourced net training to jhorthos and the J92 nets are better than the T60 nets. But even then it is weaker than Stockfish.
That, and because Lc0 scales better with HW. TCEC uses high end configurations for both GPU and CPU. But not even that + long time controls are enough to close the gap.

Dann Corbit
Posts: 11702
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Future of computer chess: 2 top engines?

Post by Dann Corbit » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:17 pm

Ozymandias wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:04 pm
Madeleine Birchfield wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:42 pm
Ozymandias wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:14 pm
Komodo 11.2 is only 26 Elo points behind version 14, at CCRL 40/15. It was released on July 17, 2017. SF had been the clear number one for over a year, by the time Lc0 matured, and now it is again; this last T60 run has been rather disappointing, not to mention incredibly long.
The main reason why Leela is somewhat competitive in TCEC is because Leela has oursourced net training to jhorthos and the J92 nets are better than the T60 nets. But even then it is weaker than Stockfish.
That, and because Lc0 scales better with HW. TCEC uses high end configurations for both GPU and CPU. But not even that + long time controls are enough to close the gap.
These statements are true for millionaires but not for ordinary people.
Which is to say, it is a lot cheaper to buy a super high end GPU than to buy a super high end CPU machine.
Of course, you may also have to buy a new power supply.
For example, a 2080 super can be bought for $760
https://www.amazon.com/Waterforce-Pre-I ... cs&sr=1-20
and a 1200W power supply for around $40:
https://www.amazon.com/437572-B21-1200W ... 25&sr=1-52
so around $800 gets you extremely high compute power for chess. To get equivalent compute power through a regular computer system would be more expensive.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

jdart
Posts: 4036
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:23 am
Location: http://www.arasanchess.org

Re: Future of computer chess: 2 top engines?

Post by jdart » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:20 pm

Lc0 is interesting because it finds lines other engines miss, but it still seems like it also steps into blunders that other engines will not fall for.

Dann Corbit
Posts: 11702
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Future of computer chess: 2 top engines?

Post by Dann Corbit » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:43 pm

For Vincent's recent tough problems list, LC0 solved one in a few seconds that bleeding edge Stockfish failed to solve in an hour using 60 threads and 65 GB RAM with full 6 man TB files.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Gary Internet
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:09 pm

Re: Future of computer chess: 2 top engines?

Post by Gary Internet » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:38 am

Jouni wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:12 pm
And now SF has +30 ELO patch/net if I understand correct :o . Soon 1 top engine.
Please can you point me in the direction of wherever you read about this? Stockfish Dev is already 23 Elo above above Stockfish 12. If one patch/net really does gain 30 Elo above that 23, we're basically already on Stockfish 13 by the usual benchmark of +50 Elo = a new release.

AndrewGrant
Posts: 871
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:08 am
Location: U.S.A
Full name: Andrew Grant
Contact:

Re: Future of computer chess: 2 top engines?

Post by AndrewGrant » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:38 am

Top 2? Hah, no. Its going to be

1. Stockfish
2. Komodo
3. Anyone in the top 10 who uses NNUE
3. Anyone in the top 10 who uses NNUE
3. Anyone in the top 10 who uses NNUE
4. Leela

Yeah, right now Stockfish and Leela are the only projects that truely have the resources to train these Networks.
But do you think Chess.com is okay with that? Igel author himself is renting out machines to do it.
Oh, and the cheaters will obfuscate Stockfish Networks :)

The great Irony is that the Leela fans will be the ones to force the issue, if it is ever forced ;)

User avatar
lucasart
Posts: 3167
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 11:29 am
Full name: lucasart
Contact:

Re: Future of computer chess: 2 top engines?

Post by lucasart » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:59 am

AndrewGrant wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:38 am
Igel author himself is renting out machines to do it.
Smart move. In a gold rush, sell shovels :lol:
Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time.

Uri Blass
Posts: 8828
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Future of computer chess: 2 top engines?

Post by Uri Blass » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:00 am

Ozymandias wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:04 pm
Madeleine Birchfield wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:42 pm
Ozymandias wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:14 pm
Komodo 11.2 is only 26 Elo points behind version 14, at CCRL 40/15. It was released on July 17, 2017. SF had been the clear number one for over a year, by the time Lc0 matured, and now it is again; this last T60 run has been rather disappointing, not to mention incredibly long.
The main reason why Leela is somewhat competitive in TCEC is because Leela has oursourced net training to jhorthos and the J92 nets are better than the T60 nets. But even then it is weaker than Stockfish.
That, and because Lc0 scales better with HW. TCEC uses high end configurations for both GPU and CPU. But not even that + long time controls are enough to close the gap.
I do not know if LC0 scales better with HW relative to stockfish.
More draws at longer time control are natural result of less mistakes.

If I remove 1-1 results I see that stockfish is leading 6-1 against lc0 in the match of TCEC.

We have the following results that are not 1-1
1)stockfish 1.5 lc0 0.5 games 17-18
2)lc0 1.5-stockfish 0.5 games 23-24
3)stockfish 1.5 lc0 0.5 games 47-48
4) stockfish 1.5 lc0 0.5 games 53-54
5)stockfish 1.5 lc0 0.5 games 59-60
6)stockfish 1.5 lc0 0.5 games 73-74
7)stockfish 1.5 lc0 0.5 games 75-76.

Post Reply