A new website for Shredder ...

[Guenther]

Maybe a programmer can explain why Fizbo is not interesting enough?!

It doesn't even have an open source licence attached. Putting it on Github allows others to look at the source code, but nothing else. Forking it would be a copyright violation, i.e. illegal to begin with.

On top of that, the CCRL doesn't list it as open source so that most people won't even know the source code is available, the CCRL links to homepage, not to the Github repo, the homepage doesn't link to the Github repo either, the engine is Windows-only to the point of absolute hardcoded c:\ paths, it's tied to Visual Studio, and the documentation is sparse.

It is also not clear how it arrived at github at all. The anonymous github repo owner just thanks the original author.

[abgursu]

Well, just saw that Original Author forked and added a licence allows everyone to do everything we want:
https://github.com/ymatiounnyl/Fizbo-Ch ... 2e2039d395

[Guenther]

Well, just saw that Original Author forked and added a licence allows everyone to do everything we want:
https://github.com/ymatiounnyl/Fizbo-Ch ... 2e2039d395

Thanks for the info!

[Robert Flesher]

"Most successful chess program ever".

Yeah, that would be Stockfish. Wrong!

Money pushes them to deceive. They ask for 50$ more to get access to the multi-threaded version of Shredder 13. This is a borderline scam, SMP has been a standard feature for many years and is present in the 8-10 free engines stronger than Shredder.

I'll also throw in there that I put little faith in engines that have sudden massive leap in strength after many years without any news and that have suspicious simex results...

[Madeleine Birchfield]

"Most successful chess program ever".

Yeah, that would be Stockfish.

Money pushes them to deceive. They ask for 50$ more to get access to the multi-threaded version of Shredder 13. This is a borderline scam, SMP has been a standard feature for many years and is present in the 8-10 free engines stronger than Shredder.

I'll also throw in there that I put little faith in engines that have sudden massive leap in strength after many years without any news and that have suspicious simex results...

http://rebel13.nl/misc/sim2019.html

Shredder 12 | 2955 | No similarity in sight. |

Shredder 13 | 3270 | Massive elo jump of 325 points, similarity with Stockfish 6 and Stockfish 8 | Stockfish 7

Why has nobody checked the source code of Shredder 13 yet to see if it is yet another GPL violating Stockfish clone like Fire and Houdini?

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Madeleine,

the playing style from Shredder 12 to 13 is a bit different.
Shredder 12 and Shredder 13 ... very passive in the earlier middlegames. Shredder 12 have much more holes in king safty. The endgame from both versions are really strong. Shredder are many years the strongest available engines in endgames ... a long time before Stockfish ...

Stockfish versions are always great attacker.

Shredder engine is much older as Gothmog / Glaurung / Stockfish

Very danger to have such engines like Stockfish because many people are thinking directly ...
The high level of an engine comes from Stockfish, that's always the same.

From the view of the style of engine ... can't be right!

After all I remember Stefan added bitboards from version 12 to 13 or magic bitboards (I have forgotten).
But I got an information from him that a new technique made Shredder around 200 Elo stronger.
The other 100 Elo are other improvements he does.

But best way is to asked Stefan directly.
If you have such a big interest on this topic ... please contact Stefan Meyer-Kahlen.
Sure, he will give you an answer!

Again, better is to ask a programmer directly before such a statement will be public.
I am sure SIM report give us good information but never a person asserted that SIM report must be ultimate!

In FEOBOS we put 41.614 analyses of 10 engines (10x 41.614) on each other.

If you like such topics:
http://www.amateurschach.de/common/feob ... ines-2.png
http://www.amateurschach.de/common/feob ... ines-3.png

I can add x other stats I made in the past because if I have the opinion the playing style is the same I am looking in detail with Excel.

Same for Nirvana Chess.
From the group of engines with around 2950 - 3000 Elo the style is very passive if we compare it with other engines.
Again: Stockfish in version 5 / 6 are much more aggressive.

Perhaps the reason is that programmers used same and good known programming knowledge.
And most of programming knowledge is not from Stockfish ... from several hundreds of other chess programmers.

A puzzle ...

Please read the Stockfish interview:
https://www.schach-welt.de/schach/compu ... ahlen-2006

To say directly ... a clone from x isn't right.

Such strong engines like Stockfish are the reason that many of us looking in SIM report but the output from SIM report is not ultimate ...
interesting but not ultimate.

I am not a programmer, but I am looking in playing styles of engines many years with a lot of statistics.
I cannot see that Shredder or Nirvanachess is Stockfish.

Pure nonsense!!

Please send Stefan Meyer-Kahlen a mail ... better as to start such discussion again and again!!

Best
Frank

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Madleine again,

same persons had written in chess fora (not TalkChess only) with different names.
TalkChess is a great basic, because many programmers are online here.

Most of the persons again and again to the same _clone topics_ ... sooner or later such messages will come!!

I read many messages from yourself and I am quit sure you are one of these persons.
Sorry, that's my personal opinion!

Maybe it's time to change the name again?
Thinking about it!

But maybe I am wrong?

I like more to read that you contact Stefan Meyer-Kahlen per eMail.
So you can give us a report about the answer from Stefan!

That's much more interesting as to start the next clone attack and try to involve many other readers without
to have knowledge about it ... in a chess forum like TalkChess.

Best
Frank

[Frank Quisinsky]

And again a bit for you ...

First Stockfish version .. I believe Mai 2009 based on Glaurung by Tord Romstad.

The programmer from Norway is in my opinion such a talent Fabien is ... a genie, a genius I think.
Other programmers told me, clear sources with many good and own ideas.
And that information and opinions I got from other genies in chess programming!

But Glaurung or before Gothmog (I believe the first Gothmog version is from earlier of the year 2004) are never strong in endgames. A very pure endgame, same for Glaurung around a year later (I believe the first Glaurung version are available in February 2005). To this time Shredder are World Champion. The reason for the gigantic Shredder strength are all the time the gigantic strong endgame from Shredder. Shredder are on place 1 and around 100 Elo stronger as the second place.

The deal with Gothmog or Glaurung ... Tord gave us 2 great king attacker's and the sources... Shredder are never a king attacker. Later the Sjeng programmer wrote here that hundreds of Elo are possible with sources like Glaurung ... the secret is to optimate parameters. A short time later a really big and new formed test-team around Stockfish. People try out to optimate first Stockfish versions with parameter tuning at first. Many good known code and again the parameter tuning and so one. Fore sure, new ideas implemented too.

The Sjeng programmer ... the initiator ... a programmer Tord and the initiator Gian-Carlo and a new team with Marco and Jouni.

Question for yourself for a silence hour.
Why is Stockfish today so strong in endgames?
Do you really believe that all this is new programming knowledge comes alone from Stockfish helping persons?

From which sources comes all the knowledge to the time around the year 2010, today available with the open source engines like Stockfish and many other engines, not available chess knowledge in times Shredder are World Champion!

Rybka - Re-engineering
Do you really believe that persons try out Rybka alone?

And now read again the Stockfish interview:
Please read what Marco wrote to question 13 in the interview (last passage).

Do you believe in reality that such a programmer like Stefan used some code from Stockfish after the history of both programs?
If so ... again ... send Stefan a mail and give us about his answer a report.

I am thinking I know which answer you will get from Stefan!

Best
Frank

[MikeB]

Hi Madleine again,
<snip>
Maybe it's time to change the name again?
Thinking about it!
<snip>
Best
Frank

HI Frank
LOL
she is not the only one ...
Best,
Mike

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Mike,

the good known trouble maker with all the problems they have.
In times more commercial programs are available the group was bigger as today.

I am thinking that it's better the people can used such fora with the full real name only.
After my knowledge with the own Arena forum with around 1.000 registration we had.

I have no preference for this forum.
Important is only that people can play admin if they need it.

Best
Frank