Dragon versus Nakamura

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: Harvey Williamson, Dann Corbit, hgm

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
User avatar
Ozymandias
Posts: 1243
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:30 am

Re: Dragon versus Nakamura

Post by Ozymandias » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:04 am

I thought Dragon would trash him, but not by so large a margin. Was he tired?

JJJ
Posts: 1333
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Dragon versus Nakamura

Post by JJJ » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:09 am

These results seems incredible ! How about a 3 pawns handicap now with Dragon ?

User avatar
Nordlandia
Posts: 2695
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:38 pm
Location: Sortland, Norway

Re: Dragon versus Nakamura

Post by Nordlandia » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:35 am

Nakamura should have been given the white pieces. Just a couple of inaccuries and Dragon may equalize. Human does not have much margin of error to go on against top engines, even with odds.

Uri Blass
Posts: 8836
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Dragon versus Nakamura

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:41 pm

Milos wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:44 am
mjlef wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:53 am
AdminX wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:57 pm
Graham Banks wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:54 pm
Nakamura psyched himself out.
I don't think he realized he was playing the MCTS version.
I mentioned we used MCTS mode in the chess.com chat along the side of the game board. He speculated there was a more aggressive setting. The only change was MCTS mode. In both regular and MCTS mode we used a low Time Usage to make Dragon move faster. We even had the same Contempt. We have speculated in the past MCTS mode (although much weaker against engines) might be better against some opponents, since it should prefer to leave them with positions with just a few good moves over positions with many good moves. Regular alpha-beta does not care since if one move is a refutation, the rest are never searched at that point in the tree. We cannot prove this though since it would take a lot of games to do so.
It shouldn't actually be very complicated to build a search function that in each position selects objectively sub-optimal move that, however, leads to positions where all but one or very few moves for opponent are bad. That kind of engine would easily win against best human even with a rook handicap.
I totally disagree about it.

rook is a rook and I think nakamura did not do his best against dragon with 2 pawns handicap.
I do not claim that he lost on purpose but you do not do your best when you talk during the game and explain what you think to other people.

Cornfed
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:40 pm
Full name: Brian D. Smith

Re: Dragon versus Nakamura

Post by Cornfed » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:54 pm

jp wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:44 am
Vinvin wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:25 am
Final score : Dragon wins 6.5-1.5 (===+++++)
An excellent result for Dragon.

Milos wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:44 am
It shouldn't actually be very complicated to build a search function that in each position selects objectively sub-optimal move that, however, leads to positions where all but one or very few moves for opponent are bad. That kind of engine would easily win against best human even with a rook handicap.
That would be a very interesting and useful function to have for chess analysis (not just so an engine can beat up a human in handicap matches).
I've certainly proposed it. Team K/D seems to indicate K/D in MCTS mode already 'sort of does this'...but an engine that would basically say 'option 2' gives the opponent 75% (or a number) of 'reasonable' looking moves that lead to an even worse continuation, would be ideal. Developers are only interested in elo for best lines though it seems.

Also, it would require a special GUI I think...and 'engine developers' specialize in tweaking parameters and such (or organizing odds exhibitions) not coding GUI's, so don't expect it to ever happen.

User avatar
Nordlandia
Posts: 2695
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:38 pm
Location: Sortland, Norway

Re: Dragon versus Nakamura

Post by Nordlandia » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:08 pm

Someone proposed Rook for Two Minors in the Twitch chat. This is a considered a huge advantage.

Is this something to consider as future odds configuration ?

Chessqueen
Posts: 1129
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: Dragon versus Nakamura

Post by Chessqueen » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:33 pm

Nordlandia wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:35 am
Nakamura should have been given the white pieces. Just a couple of inaccuries and Dragon may equalize. Human does not have much margin of error to go on against top engines, even with odds.
I agree with you but only 4 games with White and 4 with Black pieces and if Tablebases only up to 5 men since Non of the super GM can play 6 or 7 men endgames perfectly.

Paloma
Posts: 984
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: Dragon versus Nakamura

Post by Paloma » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:20 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:41 pm
....
I do not claim that he lost on purpose but you do not do your best when you talk during the game and explain what you think to other people.
I agree completely.

Cornfed
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:40 pm
Full name: Brian D. Smith

Re: Dragon versus Nakamura

Post by Cornfed » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:46 pm

Cornfed wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:54 pm
jp wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:44 am
Vinvin wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:25 am
Final score : Dragon wins 6.5-1.5 (===+++++)
An excellent result for Dragon.

Milos wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:44 am
It shouldn't actually be very complicated to build a search function that in each position selects objectively sub-optimal move that, however, leads to positions where all but one or very few moves for opponent are bad. That kind of engine would easily win against best human even with a rook handicap.
That would be a very interesting and useful function to have for chess analysis (not just so an engine can beat up a human in handicap matches).
I've certainly proposed it. Team K/D seems to indicate K/D in MCTS mode already 'sort of does this'...but an engine that would basically say 'option 2' gives the opponent 75% (or a number) of 'reasonable' looking moves that lead to an even worse continuation, would be ideal. Developers are only interested in elo for best lines though it seems.

Also, it would require a special GUI I think...and 'engine developers' specialize in tweaking parameters and such (or organizing odds exhibitions) not coding GUI's, so don't expect it to ever happen.
Not really the proper thread for this specific idea. But to follow up, I would add that Komodo/Dragon using their MCTS...in conjunction with Chessbase would be ideal since about everyone has Chessbase and us it to work on their game, prepare opening idea, etc. A boy can dream...

lkaufman
Posts: 4426
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Dragon versus Nakamura

Post by lkaufman » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:29 pm

Ozymandias wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:04 am
I thought Dragon would trash him, but not by so large a margin. Was he tired?
I wouldn't say "tired". But he played too quickly, was too distracted reading messages, and seemed to be upset that we had changed something (mcts), even though there was no rule against changing settings and we had made the very same change midway in our two previous matches. But when I reviewed the games, most of the critical decisions (but not all) by Dragon would have also been chosen by normal Dragon, and in one game Dragon MCTS missed a brilliant win that regular Dragon saw, only to win anyway after later errors by Nakamura.
Komodo rules!

Post Reply