Dragon vs GM Nakamura Analog Handicap Match

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Laskos
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Re: Dragon vs GM Nakamura Analog Handicap Match

Post by Laskos » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:56 pm

4 - 0
???
MCTS was turned on? And Naka felt it so dramatically? (complained several times)

dkappe
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Re: Dragon vs GM Nakamura Analog Handicap Match

Post by dkappe » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:58 pm

Laskos wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:56 pm
4 - 0
???
MCTS was turned on? And Naka felt it so dramatically? (complained several times)
MCTS is 100 elo weaker, but if I’m prepping for a human opponent, I’d use it over SF and leela.

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Laskos
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Re: Dragon vs GM Nakamura Analog Handicap Match

Post by Laskos » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:07 am

dkappe wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:58 pm
Laskos wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:56 pm
4 - 0
???
MCTS was turned on? And Naka felt it so dramatically? (complained several times)
MCTS is 100 elo weaker, but if I’m prepping for a human opponent, I’d use it over SF and leela.
Knight odds in rapid seem not very far away now. I think it was Naka saying that Knight odds will never happen even against a perfect player. I guess it doesn't matter whether the player is perfect or not, it's important to overwhelm the human in a deluge of potential threats and possible mistakes.

lkaufman
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Re: Dragon vs GM Nakamura Analog Handicap Match

Post by lkaufman » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:15 am

Laskos wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:07 am
dkappe wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:58 pm
Laskos wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:56 pm
4 - 0
???
MCTS was turned on? And Naka felt it so dramatically? (complained several times)
MCTS is 100 elo weaker, but if I’m prepping for a human opponent, I’d use it over SF and leela.
Knight odds in rapid seem not very far away now. I think it was Naka saying that Knight odds will never happen even against a perfect player. I guess it doesn't matter whether the player is perfect or not, it's important to overwhelm the human in a deluge of potential threats and possible mistakes.
Yes, today was MCTS. Based on today's games and Dragon MCTS 1.5 to 0.5 score at knight odds vs. my son at same time control, maybe it could be a fair match for a borderline (FIDE 2500) GM. Perhaps a rematch with SMerdon, although he is somewhat stronger than 2500 in Rapid and has the experience of his prior match.
Komodo rules!

Chessqueen
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Re: Dragon vs GM Nakamura Analog Handicap Match

Post by Chessqueen » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:08 am

lkaufman wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:15 am
Laskos wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:07 am
dkappe wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:58 pm
Laskos wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:56 pm
4 - 0
???
MCTS was turned on? And Naka felt it so dramatically? (complained several times)
MCTS is 100 elo weaker, but if I’m prepping for a human opponent, I’d use it over SF and leela.
Knight odds in rapid seem not very far away now. I think it was Naka saying that Knight odds will never happen even against a perfect player. I guess it doesn't matter whether the player is perfect or not, it's important to overwhelm the human in a deluge of potential threats and possible mistakes.
Yes, today was MCTS. Based on today's games and Dragon MCTS 1.5 to 0.5 score at knight odds vs. my son at same time control, maybe it could be a fair match for a borderline (FIDE 2500) GM. Perhaps a rematch with SMerdon, although he is somewhat stronger than 2500 in Rapid and has the experience of his prior match.
First I will like to congratulate you. But still there is something that tell me that Nakamura match was NOT too fair, he constantly got distracted by people asking him stupid questions, which clearly tell me that he could NOT fully concentrate as GM Smerdon who does NOT talk so much while playing. It is understandable to probably say something every five moves or so, but NOT constantly talking and answering silly questions, therefore, GM Nakamura performed at least 100 to 200 Elo weaker than when he play on chess.com without having to talk ( simply playing and Focused on the game). :roll:

PS: I honestly believe that under a condition where Naka does not have to be constantly talking just playing, he could easily end up 4 to 4 versus Komodo Dragon. You could tell how distracted he was that a super GM was NOT able to use his a Rook, which clearly tell me that people distracted him too much. Please Next time agree to play under those conditions. :roll:

gaard
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Re: Dragon vs GM Nakamura Analog Handicap Match

Post by gaard » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:52 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:08 am
lkaufman wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:15 am
Laskos wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:07 am
dkappe wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:58 pm
Laskos wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:56 pm
4 - 0
???
MCTS was turned on? And Naka felt it so dramatically? (complained several times)
MCTS is 100 elo weaker, but if I’m prepping for a human opponent, I’d use it over SF and leela.
Knight odds in rapid seem not very far away now. I think it was Naka saying that Knight odds will never happen even against a perfect player. I guess it doesn't matter whether the player is perfect or not, it's important to overwhelm the human in a deluge of potential threats and possible mistakes.
Yes, today was MCTS. Based on today's games and Dragon MCTS 1.5 to 0.5 score at knight odds vs. my son at same time control, maybe it could be a fair match for a borderline (FIDE 2500) GM. Perhaps a rematch with SMerdon, although he is somewhat stronger than 2500 in Rapid and has the experience of his prior match.
First I will like to congratulate you. But still there is something that tell me that Nakamura match was NOT too fair, he constantly got distracted by people asking him stupid questions, which clearly tell me that he could NOT fully concentrate as GM Smerdon who does NOT talk so much while playing. It is understandable to probably say something every five moves or so, but NOT constantly talking and answering silly questions, therefore, GM Nakamura performed at least 100 to 200 Elo weaker than when he play on chess.com without having to talk ( simply playing and Focused on the game). :roll:

PS: I honestly believe that under a condition where Naka does not have to be constantly talking just playing, he could easily end up 4 to 4 versus Komodo Dragon. You could tell how distracted he was that a super GM was NOT able to use his a Rook, which clearly tell me that people distracted him too much. Please Next time agree to play under those conditions. :roll:
I don't think there are any requirements that he give any consideration to his chat while he is playing. He simply chose to do so. At most I would say that cost him 5% of his time. Not near enough to make up for the disparity in the strength of his opponent to make a significant difference in the score, imo. I would also like to see OTB play without distractions from the PC, but I don't think the stakes are high enough for him at this point.

Edit: it also seemed clear to me that he was receiving input from people with live chess engine analysis, which may have even benefited him. I can't say for sure. I only had the audio to go by.
Last edited by gaard on Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

dkappe
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Re: Dragon vs GM Nakamura Analog Handicap Match

Post by dkappe » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:52 am

I think streaming on his twitch stream was Nakamura’s choice.

Chessqueen
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Re: Dragon vs GM Nakamura Analog Handicap Match

Post by Chessqueen » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:22 am

dkappe wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:52 am
I think streaming on his twitch stream was Nakamura’s choice.

That is true and reason for losing so bad, If Carlsen ever accept this type of challenge he would at least draw 4 to 4 the match. Plus people here post that the MCTS is at least 80 Elo weaker, that could be when you are matching against others engines, but versus Human the style of MCTS is at least 75 Elo stronger than the Komodo Dragon NNUE or the first version that played versus Nakamura and much much more aggressive which makes humans blunder more.

Chessqueen
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Re: Dragon vs GM Nakamura Analog Handicap Match

Post by Chessqueen » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:31 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:22 am
dkappe wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:52 am
I think streaming on his twitch stream was Nakamura’s choice.

That is true and reason for losing so bad, If Carlsen ever accept this type of challenge he would at least draw 4 to 4 the match. Plus people here post that the MCTS is at least 80 Elo weaker, that could be when you are matching against others engines, but versus Human the style of MCTS is at least 75 Elo stronger than the Komodo Dragon NNUE or the first version that played versus Nakamura and much much more aggressive which makes humans blunder more.
I will ask Jorge Sammour to play versus Komodo MCTS under the same condition and time control, he should at least draw 1 game without talking, of course my new system is only 8 cores, but based on his Elo difference it should compensate.

JJJ
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Re: Dragon vs GM Nakamura Analog Handicap Match

Post by JJJ » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:17 am

I do think now that Dragon will crush Penguin at Knight handicap at 1+1 ! Incredible performance from Kromodo.

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