Classical Stockfish

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: Harvey Williamson, Dann Corbit, hgm

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
DrCliche
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:57 pm
Full name: Nickolas Reynolds

Re: Classical Stockfish

Post by DrCliche » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:40 pm

Terje wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:32 am
I see - appologies for the misinformation. I assume the conclusion that using pre-NNUE SF is likely to be the strongest SF without using NNUE still holds?
That may still be true for the time being, but likely won't be for too much longer. Most of Stockfish's improvements are to search, which in general seems to help regardless of the evaluation function. (Or even regardless of the game, see Shogi!)

So even if search parameters are tuned for hybrid evaluation, search in general is still continually improving overall, which in turn ensures Stockfish is also improving even with NNUE disabled. (Plus people do still occasionally improve the handcrafted evaluation function, as well.)

JohnWoe
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:31 pm

Re: Classical Stockfish

Post by JohnWoe » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:51 pm

DrCliche wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:40 pm
Terje wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:32 am
I see - appologies for the misinformation. I assume the conclusion that using pre-NNUE SF is likely to be the strongest SF without using NNUE still holds?
That may still be true for the time being, but likely won't be for too much longer. Most of Stockfish's improvements are to search, which in general seems to help regardless of the evaluation function. (Or even regardless of the game, see Shogi!)

So even if search parameters are tuned for hybrid evaluation, search in general is still continually improving overall, which in turn ensures Stockfish is also improving even with NNUE disabled. (Plus people do still occasionally improve the handcrafted evaluation function, as well.)
People are holding too much onto HCE. Yes it took blood, sweat and tears (+ a few megatonnes of C2O) to tune it over the years. It's got nothing to NN. It's time to let HCE go and step into pure NNUE world!

Madeleine Birchfield
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:29 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Full name: Madeleine Birchfield

Re: Classical Stockfish

Post by Madeleine Birchfield » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:58 am

DrCliche wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:40 pm
Terje wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:32 am
I see - appologies for the misinformation. I assume the conclusion that using pre-NNUE SF is likely to be the strongest SF without using NNUE still holds?
That may still be true for the time being, but likely won't be for too much longer. Most of Stockfish's improvements are to search, which in general seems to help regardless of the evaluation function. (Or even regardless of the game, see Shogi!)

So even if search parameters are tuned for hybrid evaluation, search in general is still continually improving overall, which in turn ensures Stockfish is also improving even with NNUE disabled. (Plus people do still occasionally improve the handcrafted evaluation function, as well.)
On the other hand, I believe the Stockfish team is currently experimenting with a NNUE/NNUE hybrid and preliminary results have shown it to be about 20 Elo above current NNUE/Handcrafted.

User avatar
Ozymandias
Posts: 1243
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:30 am

Re: Classical Stockfish

Post by Ozymandias » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:07 am

Isn't NNUE/Handcrafted an NNUE hybrid itself?

User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 4500
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: Classical Stockfish

Post by MikeB » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:14 am

Terje wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:32 am
Alayan wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:50 am
Terje wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:35 am

There are some patches for the handcrafted eval, but using the newest SF without NNUE on is likely worse than using the last SF before NNUE was added, as everything is now tuned to work best with NNUE, even the handcrafted eval.
Somewhat incorrect. The handcrafted eval is tuned for the highest strength with NNUE=false, not to match NNUE. New classical eval patches are validated with NNUE=false tests.

The search function is tuned to work best with the NNUE/HCE hybrid.
I see - appologies for the misinformation. I assume the conclusion that using pre-NNUE SF is likely to be the strongest SF without using NNUE still holds?
I assume so, I haven't tested it, but I have heard that pure classical is now regressive vs the last commit before NNUE. Easy enough to test I suppose, but to me it doesn't really matter (to me) and it would just be a waste of time (for me).
Image

thewhip
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:50 pm
Full name: Juan Garcia

Re: Classical Stockfish

Post by thewhip » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:59 pm

corres wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:54 pm
The last Classic Stockfish is 200904 what is playing on chess.com
And how do you know that this is the version currently playing on chess.com?

Post Reply