An idea for new Handicap games for dragon

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JJJ
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Re: An idea for new Handicap games for dragon

Post by JJJ » Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:36 am

In the meantime, right now Komodo Dragon is leading at odds game at CCC. Really nice !

Chessqueen
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Re: An idea for new Handicap games for dragon

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:08 pm

JJJ wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:36 am
In the meantime, right now Komodo Dragon is leading at odds game at CCC. Really nice !
What are the Odds settings and where can I watch this CCC match ?

lkaufman
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Re: An idea for new Handicap games for dragon

Post by lkaufman » Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:24 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:08 pm
JJJ wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:36 am
In the meantime, right now Komodo Dragon is leading at odds game at CCC. Really nice !
What are the Odds settings and where can I watch this CCC match ?
https://www.chess.com/computer-chess-championship. It is an 8 engine double round robin event at ten different handicaps, starting with queen odds and dropping to handicaps like one pawn, two moves, or castling rights. Stockfish regained the lead, it's a close race between SF and Dragon with Lc0 and SFClassic in the next two places, followed by Ethereal. Wasp is in last place, generally just getting draws with the top engines when getting the smaller handicaps. But Wasp is a strong program, far beyond the level of any human player. It is rated 3314 on the CCC hardware, using the CCRL blitz rating scale.
Komodo rules!

JJJ
Posts: 1343
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:47 am

Re: An idea for new Handicap games for dragon

Post by JJJ » Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:48 am

lkaufman wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:24 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:08 pm
JJJ wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:36 am
In the meantime, right now Komodo Dragon is leading at odds game at CCC. Really nice !
What are the Odds settings and where can I watch this CCC match ?
https://www.chess.com/computer-chess-championship. It is an 8 engine double round robin event at ten different handicaps, starting with queen odds and dropping to handicaps like one pawn, two moves, or castling rights. Stockfish regained the lead, it's a close race between SF and Dragon with Lc0 and SFClassic in the next two places, followed by Ethereal. Wasp is in last place, generally just getting draws with the top engines when getting the smaller handicaps. But Wasp is a strong program, far beyond the level of any human player. It is rated 3314 on the CCC hardware, using the CCRL blitz rating scale.
Based on what I see, like Stockfish drawing game without E pawn against Dragon, I guess the minimum handicap for a world champion would be 2 pawn handicap for engine now !

Chessqueen
Posts: 1455
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: An idea for new Handicap games for dragon

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:03 am

JJJ wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:48 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:24 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:08 pm
JJJ wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:36 am
In the meantime, right now Komodo Dragon is leading at odds game at CCC. Really nice !
What are the Odds settings and where can I watch this CCC match ?
https://www.chess.com/computer-chess-championship. It is an 8 engine double round robin event at ten different handicaps, starting with queen odds and dropping to handicaps like one pawn, two moves, or castling rights. Stockfish regained the lead, it's a close race between SF and Dragon with Lc0 and SFClassic in the next two places, followed by Ethereal. Wasp is in last place, generally just getting draws with the top engines when getting the smaller handicaps. But Wasp is a strong program, far beyond the level of any human player. It is rated 3314 on the CCC hardware, using the CCRL blitz rating scale.
Based on what I see, like Stockfish drawing game without E pawn against Dragon, I guess the minimum handicap for a world champion would be 2 pawn handicap for engine now !


I believe that between engines Odds handicap should NOT be greater than 2 pawns, even if the difference is greater than 300 rating points, even if one engine remove its Rook and the other its Knight or Bishop :roll:

lkaufman
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
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Re: An idea for new Handicap games for dragon

Post by lkaufman » Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:43 am

JJJ wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:48 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:24 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:08 pm
JJJ wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:36 am
In the meantime, right now Komodo Dragon is leading at odds game at CCC. Really nice !
What are the Odds settings and where can I watch this CCC match ?
https://www.chess.com/computer-chess-championship. It is an 8 engine double round robin event at ten different handicaps, starting with queen odds and dropping to handicaps like one pawn, two moves, or castling rights. Stockfish regained the lead, it's a close race between SF and Dragon with Lc0 and SFClassic in the next two places, followed by Ethereal. Wasp is in last place, generally just getting draws with the top engines when getting the smaller handicaps. But Wasp is a strong program, far beyond the level of any human player. It is rated 3314 on the CCC hardware, using the CCRL blitz rating scale.
Based on what I see, like Stockfish drawing game without E pawn against Dragon, I guess the minimum handicap for a world champion would be 2 pawn handicap for engine now !
Well, we already know this to be so because Hikaru Nakamura, who was virtually even with Magnus Carlsen in 15' + 10" games this year, lost 6.5 to 1.5 to Komodo Dragon at that time limit with two pawn odds (b2 or c2 plus f2 or g2). But the engine event is 3' + 2"; at that level even two White pawns isn't enough for any human, although knight odds is probably too much for Carlsen or Hikaru or MVL.
Komodo rules!

Uri Blass
Posts: 8948
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: An idea for new Handicap games for dragon

Post by Uri Blass » Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:15 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:03 am
JJJ wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:48 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:24 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:08 pm
JJJ wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:36 am
In the meantime, right now Komodo Dragon is leading at odds game at CCC. Really nice !
What are the Odds settings and where can I watch this CCC match ?
https://www.chess.com/computer-chess-championship. It is an 8 engine double round robin event at ten different handicaps, starting with queen odds and dropping to handicaps like one pawn, two moves, or castling rights. Stockfish regained the lead, it's a close race between SF and Dragon with Lc0 and SFClassic in the next two places, followed by Ethereal. Wasp is in last place, generally just getting draws with the top engines when getting the smaller handicaps. But Wasp is a strong program, far beyond the level of any human player. It is rated 3314 on the CCC hardware, using the CCRL blitz rating scale.
Based on what I see, like Stockfish drawing game without E pawn against Dragon, I guess the minimum handicap for a world champion would be 2 pawn handicap for engine now !


I believe that between engines Odds handicap should NOT be greater than 2 pawns, even if the difference is greater than 300 rating points, even if one engine remove its Rook and the other its Knight or Bishop :roll:
I see no reason not to have bigger handicap between engines.
weak engines can lose even when the strong engines starts without a knight and it may be interesting to see which engine is best in getting points against weak engines without a knight.

It may be interesting also to know what is the playing strength of the weak engines in this competition and I guess that the order may be different than normal chess because there are weak engines that know better to simplify when they have the material advantage.

JJJ
Posts: 1343
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:47 am

Re: An idea for new Handicap games for dragon

Post by JJJ » Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:42 am

lkaufman wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:43 am
JJJ wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:48 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:24 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:08 pm
JJJ wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:36 am
In the meantime, right now Komodo Dragon is leading at odds game at CCC. Really nice !
What are the Odds settings and where can I watch this CCC match ?
https://www.chess.com/computer-chess-championship. It is an 8 engine double round robin event at ten different handicaps, starting with queen odds and dropping to handicaps like one pawn, two moves, or castling rights. Stockfish regained the lead, it's a close race between SF and Dragon with Lc0 and SFClassic in the next two places, followed by Ethereal. Wasp is in last place, generally just getting draws with the top engines when getting the smaller handicaps. But Wasp is a strong program, far beyond the level of any human player. It is rated 3314 on the CCC hardware, using the CCRL blitz rating scale.
Based on what I see, like Stockfish drawing game without E pawn against Dragon, I guess the minimum handicap for a world champion would be 2 pawn handicap for engine now !
Well, we already know this to be so because Hikaru Nakamura, who was virtually even with Magnus Carlsen in 15' + 10" games this year, lost 6.5 to 1.5 to Komodo Dragon at that time limit with two pawn odds (b2 or c2 plus f2 or g2). But the engine event is 3' + 2"; at that level even two White pawns isn't enough for any human, although knight odds is probably too much for Carlsen or Hikaru or MVL.
I meant, 2 pawn handicap would be needed in long time control instead of rapid or blitz. Are you gonna try 3 full pawn at some points ? I m still hoping you ll try knight handicap at 1+1 or 2+1.

lkaufman
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: An idea for new Handicap games for dragon

Post by lkaufman » Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:08 pm

JJJ wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:42 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:43 am
JJJ wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:48 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:24 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:08 pm
JJJ wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:36 am
In the meantime, right now Komodo Dragon is leading at odds game at CCC. Really nice !
What are the Odds settings and where can I watch this CCC match ?
https://www.chess.com/computer-chess-championship. It is an 8 engine double round robin event at ten different handicaps, starting with queen odds and dropping to handicaps like one pawn, two moves, or castling rights. Stockfish regained the lead, it's a close race between SF and Dragon with Lc0 and SFClassic in the next two places, followed by Ethereal. Wasp is in last place, generally just getting draws with the top engines when getting the smaller handicaps. But Wasp is a strong program, far beyond the level of any human player. It is rated 3314 on the CCC hardware, using the CCRL blitz rating scale.
Based on what I see, like Stockfish drawing game without E pawn against Dragon, I guess the minimum handicap for a world champion would be 2 pawn handicap for engine now !
Well, we already know this to be so because Hikaru Nakamura, who was virtually even with Magnus Carlsen in 15' + 10" games this year, lost 6.5 to 1.5 to Komodo Dragon at that time limit with two pawn odds (b2 or c2 plus f2 or g2). But the engine event is 3' + 2"; at that level even two White pawns isn't enough for any human, although knight odds is probably too much for Carlsen or Hikaru or MVL.
I meant, 2 pawn handicap would be needed in long time control instead of rapid or blitz. Are you gonna try 3 full pawn at some points ? I m still hoping you ll try knight handicap at 1+1 or 2+1.
We might try 3 (White) pawns at some point, although I'm not a fan of that handicap as too much depends on the choice of pawns, and because play is so different from normal chess. I slightly prefer f7 + g7 handicap, which is two pawns plus move plus castling (after the expected 1.e4 d6 2.Qh5+ Kd7). I do want to see a knight odds match at some point with a top bullet player at 1+1 or 2+1. Another idea is descending handicaps, as in the chess.com event unfolding now.
Komodo rules!

JJJ
Posts: 1343
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:47 am

Re: An idea for new Handicap games for dragon

Post by JJJ » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:19 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:08 pm
JJJ wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:42 am
lkaufman wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:43 am
JJJ wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:48 am
lkaufman wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:24 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:08 pm
JJJ wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:36 am
In the meantime, right now Komodo Dragon is leading at odds game at CCC. Really nice !
What are the Odds settings and where can I watch this CCC match ?
https://www.chess.com/computer-chess-championship. It is an 8 engine double round robin event at ten different handicaps, starting with queen odds and dropping to handicaps like one pawn, two moves, or castling rights. Stockfish regained the lead, it's a close race between SF and Dragon with Lc0 and SFClassic in the next two places, followed by Ethereal. Wasp is in last place, generally just getting draws with the top engines when getting the smaller handicaps. But Wasp is a strong program, far beyond the level of any human player. It is rated 3314 on the CCC hardware, using the CCRL blitz rating scale.
Based on what I see, like Stockfish drawing game without E pawn against Dragon, I guess the minimum handicap for a world champion would be 2 pawn handicap for engine now !
Well, we already know this to be so because Hikaru Nakamura, who was virtually even with Magnus Carlsen in 15' + 10" games this year, lost 6.5 to 1.5 to Komodo Dragon at that time limit with two pawn odds (b2 or c2 plus f2 or g2). But the engine event is 3' + 2"; at that level even two White pawns isn't enough for any human, although knight odds is probably too much for Carlsen or Hikaru or MVL.
I meant, 2 pawn handicap would be needed in long time control instead of rapid or blitz. Are you gonna try 3 full pawn at some points ? I m still hoping you ll try knight handicap at 1+1 or 2+1.
We might try 3 (White) pawns at some point, although I'm not a fan of that handicap as too much depends on the choice of pawns, and because play is so different from normal chess. I slightly prefer f7 + g7 handicap, which is two pawns plus move plus castling (after the expected 1.e4 d6 2.Qh5+ Kd7). I do want to see a knight odds match at some point with a top bullet player at 1+1 or 2+1. Another idea is descending handicaps, as in the chess.com event unfolding now.
Ok thanks you for your reply. It would be nice to see a descending handicaps , I agree. Last time chess event was about beating bot. But the next things could be beating bot at many many many differents handicap. Like the odds game Nakamura played against human.

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