Tornado News

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Angle
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Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:04 am
Full name: Aleksey Glebov

Re: Tornado News

Post by Angle » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:36 pm

Engin wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:20 pm
then you also not use same books for all engines too :-)
Clearly, it's not the same. The main purpose of opening book is to diversify engine's play and avoid similar lines every time. It doesn't determine engine's individuality nor style anyhow while eval does.
Incredibly fast systems miscount incredibly fast.

Chessqueen
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Full name: George Pichard

Re: Tornado News

Post by Chessqueen » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:04 am

Madeleine Birchfield wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:11 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:58 pm
Pedone xxx or whatever now has its own NNUE, not simply implemented by replacing SF NNUE
"Yes Pedone is now using NNUE. I have implemented my own network with included castle rights and with independent weights for the both sides.
For the training I have used 14 depth search score of Pedone with traditional evaluation and I have used a simple SGD to train the net.
I'm not an expert on NN but I have found on the net a lot of material that have helped the development.
I also have a discussion with Marco Belli and we have helped each other in implementing NNUE."
Pedone 2.1 does not have its own NNUE, as stated in the first post of the Pedone 2.1 thread; instead it is the last version of Pedone that does not have NNUE, all future versions of Pedone have NNUE, such as the dev verson of Pedone playing at TCEC.

Madeleine Birchfield
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Location: Dublin, Ireland
Full name: Madeleine Birchfield

Re: Tornado News

Post by Madeleine Birchfield » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:15 am

Engin wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:41 am
Hello Computer and Chessfriends,

i created a new Tornado site here: https://sites.google.com/view/tornadochess/start

you can download the last version 8 or just new Tornado with can be NNUE use it in the evalution function now.

it's amazing increased in strength with just only NNUE!

i did not really well test it, but seems it is now over 3000 elo or more :-)

later i will do my own neural network but that's need many time .... :-/

enjoy,
Engin
Somebody alerted me that Tornado uses Daniel Shawul's nnue-probe for its NNUE implementation.

https://github.com/dshawul/nnue-probe

nnue-probe has a General Public License v3.0, which means that if Tornado uses the code of nnue-probe, then its source code needs to be open to the public under the GPLv3.0. See points 6 and 10 of the license:

https://github.com/dshawul/nnue-probe/b ... er/LICENSE

Otherwise, you would have to reimplement NNUE without using Daniel Shawul's nnue-probe. As of right now, it violates the GPLv3.0.

Engin
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Full name: Engin Üstün

Re: Tornado News

Post by Engin » Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:22 pm

well, i had used that source as basics and re-writed to my engine for work with it, also the nalimov/syzygy table base probe was/is also free to use with permission ( not must be open the whole source code of your engine! )

Ok, i am working on my own neural network implementation right now and will be remove the SF NNUE and replace it with my own ones.

And others are using NNUE implementation too (BBC, Minic, Seer, Nemorito, Rubichess, Orion even Komodo Dragon ), so why i can not use it ?!

So if you say that i must open source code because i using whole algorithms in the past over 50 years ago of computerchess programming knowledge, example alpha beta, pvs, futility pruning, hash tables etc. so i am sorry to use them all :-(

also books can be used in any engines, then you must forbidden them too!

this community complains everything what programmers are doing instead be happy that they had enough motivation to do this and make the community more richer !

well if i spend many years to write a chess engine and you are simply forbid everything in chess knowledge then i must say better to leave this chess community!

Madeleine Birchfield
Posts: 296
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Location: Dublin, Ireland
Full name: Madeleine Birchfield

Re: Tornado News

Post by Madeleine Birchfield » Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:56 pm

Engin wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:22 pm
well, i had used that source as basics and re-writed to my engine for work with it, also the nalimov/syzygy table base probe was/is also free to use with permission ( not must be open the whole source code of your engine! )

Ok, i am working on my own neural network implementation right now and will be remove the SF NNUE and replace it with my own ones.
Good luck with your own NNUE implementation.
Engin wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:22 pm
And others are using NNUE implementation too (BBC, Minic, Seer, Nemorito, Rubichess, Orion even Komodo Dragon ), so why i can not use it ?!
I should note that BBC, Nemorino, Minic, Seer, and Rubichess are open source engines with the GPLv3.0.

Orion and Komodo Dragon use their own implementation, so they aren't bound by Stockfish's GPLv3.0. nnue-probe is ultimately derived from CFish which comes from Stockfish.
Engin wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:22 pm
So if you say that i must open source code because i using whole algorithms in the past over 50 years ago of computerchess programming knowledge, example alpha beta, pvs, futility pruning, hash tables etc. so i am sorry to use them all :-(
There is a difference between using ideas and algorithms (alpha beta pvs, futility pruning, hash tables, NNUE, et cetera), and using somebody else's code (Daniel Shawul's nnue probe). There is no shame in implementing the above ideas yourself and people are encouraged to implement them from scratch in this community.

Engin
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Full name: Engin Üstün

Re: Tornado News

Post by Engin » Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:26 pm

Ok, i removed Tornado NNUE from my website now and i am sorry for that i spend my time :-(

Damir
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Full name: Damir Desevac

Re: Tornado News

Post by Damir » Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:38 pm

As long as we get Tornado for free i don't see any harm in using ideas from other engines. It would have been completely different if Tornado was commercial engine. I think Madeleine better think before she start accusing people of stealing other engine's code. :roll:

Engin
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Full name: Engin Üstün

Re: Tornado News

Post by Engin » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:39 pm

At the moment i am very pissed off :-(

There are some trolls around that complains everything what programmers are doing, even they are spend many years at own work and let the community enjoy for free !

Daniel Shawul
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Location: Ethiopia
Contact:

Re: Tornado News

Post by Daniel Shawul » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:52 pm

Engin wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:39 pm
At the moment i am very pissed off :-(

There are some trolls around that complains everything what programmers are doing, even they are spend many years at own work and let the community enjoy for free !
Hi Engin,
Your anger is very understandable.
I have another implementation that is not GPL but currently it is not compatible with SF nets.
https://github.com/dshawul/nncpu-probe
It uses vertical symmetry to reduce the number of input nodes by half. What I suggest is you simply keep
on training your own net. By that time either I would finish support for SF format nets or you would have implemented
your own nnue prober anyway.

Daniel

Madeleine Birchfield
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Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:29 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Full name: Madeleine Birchfield

Re: Tornado News

Post by Madeleine Birchfield » Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:20 pm

Damir wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:38 pm
As long as we get Tornado for free i don't see any harm in using ideas from other engines. It would have been completely different if Tornado was commercial engine. I think Madeleine better think before she start accusing people of stealing other engine's code. :roll:
I am not accusing anybody of stealing anything. Engin specifically stated on the Tornado website that Tornado was using the nnue-probe from Daniel Shawul, which uses the GPLv3 license.

There has been some discussion recently regarding why the TCEC administrators aren't allowing Tornado to participate in TCEC, and one of the things they brought up was the GPLv3 violation.

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