Has Stockfish NNUE reached it's limit now?

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Madeleine Birchfield
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Re: Has Stockfish NNUE reached it's limit now?

Post by Madeleine Birchfield » Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:49 am

kinderchocolate wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:19 am
Seriously, nobody else is doing it? The Discoard channel is always busy...
That's not what I said; I said that they had to start from scratch because Sergio Vieri left. The Stockfish team were SPSA tuning the network weights two months ago while Gary Linscott was building a pytorch trainer from the ground up, because they couldn't successfully follow Sergio's guidelines and train a better neural network than the last net trained by Sergio using the nodchip trainer. Because of that, progress has been extremely slow the past two months.

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M ANSARI
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Re: Has Stockfish NNUE reached it's limit now?

Post by M ANSARI » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:21 am

Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:59 pm
carldaman wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:59 am
Or maybe go back to classical eval?

:twisted:
Probably yes, but it will be a long long way to go now ( Probably 3 years + working).

In the last Sufi 19, it was NNUE that just stepped in time to save Stockfish team. ( Lc0 vs SF Classical ended up 59-41 in bonus match).

And in cccc, Classical lost to Lc0 in 2 pawns handicap.


Pretty amazing game! But looking at the game I actually spotted a forced mate with Bishop + Rook by sacrificing the Queen. I guess humans are still better at some things as we can notice the Bishop and Rook mate pattern. Of course white is still winning but this makes me wonder if in some positions LC0 still has some tactical awareness issues.

[d]r1b2rk1/ppp2pb1/q3pBpp/4P3/8/2P1Q3/2P2PPR/2KR4 w - - 0 28

Kanizsa
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Re: Has Stockfish NNUE reached it's limit now?

Post by Kanizsa » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:01 pm

After the sacrifice of Queen, have you thought to Qa1+ and Rd8+ giving back Queen on Rook d1 ?

Jouni
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Re: Has Stockfish NNUE reached it's limit now?

Post by Jouni » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:09 pm

Analysis by Crystal 110920:

28.Qxh6 Qa1+ 29.Kd2 Rd8+ 30.Ke3 Qxc3+ 31.Kf4 Qb4+ 32.c4 Bxh6+ 33.Rxh6 Qxc4+ 34.Kg5 Qf4+ 35.Kxf4 Rd4+ 36.Rxd4 g5+ 37.Kxg5 a6 38.Rh8#
+- (#11) Depth: 16/37 00:00:01 7130kN
Jouni

Andrew
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Re: Has Stockfish NNUE reached it's limit now?

Post by Andrew » Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:49 am

A move earlier

Analysis by Crystal 220819 64 BMI2:

27.bxc3 Qa4 28.Rd4 Qa1+ 29.Kd2 Qf1 30.Rxh6 b6 31.Bxg7 Kxg7 32.Rhh4 Rh8 33.Rxh8 Qe2+ 34.Kxe2 Ba6+ 35.Kd2 Rxh8 36.Qg5 Rh1 37.Qf6+ Kh6 38.Qh8+ Kg5 39.Qxh1 Kf5 40.Qh4 Kxe5 41.Qf4#
White mates: +- (#15) Depth: 38/31 00:02:23 929MN, tb=931

then later
27.bxc3 h5 28.Rxh5 Qa5 29.Rd4 Bxf6 30.Qh6 Bg5+ 31.Rxg5 Qa1+ 32.Kd2 Qh1 33.Qxh1 Kg7 34.Rh5 gxh5 35.Qxh5 Rd8 36.Qg5+ Kh7 37.Qxd8 f6 38.Rh4+ Kg7 39.Qxf6+ Kg8 40.Rh8#
White mates: +- (#14) Depth: 40/29 00:04:07 1540MN, tb=931

Move 26
26.Qe3 h5 27.Rxh5 c3 28.bxc3 Qa6 29.Rd3 Qa1+ 30.Kd2 Qf1 31.Rh4 Bd7 32.Bxg7 f5 33.Rh8+ Kf7 34.Rxd7+ Ke8 35.Bxf8 Qd1+ 36.Kxd1 Kxd7 37.Rh7+ Ke8 38.Qd2 Kxf8 39.Qd7 Kg8 40.Qf7#
White mates: +- (#15) Depth: 42/35 00:02:52 895MN, tb=4329

Move 25 is heading that way as well but will need someone with a faster machine (gave up on 4 threads after 30 min!!)

Andrew

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M ANSARI
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Re: Has Stockfish NNUE reached it's limit now?

Post by M ANSARI » Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:59 am

Kanizsa wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:01 pm
After the sacrifice of Queen, have you thought to Qa1+ and Rd8+ giving back Queen on Rook d1 ?
This position would probably be good to add to the puzzle rush catalog but this would be a puzzle around 1600 ELO to 1700 ELO rating. After the queen sac all you have to do is calculate that the nuisance checks end and after that mate is inevitable. Forced and only moves are generally easy to calculate for a human, but those types of moves are super easy for even the weakest engines. So I am just surprised that this type of forcing variation is missed by one of the strongest engines on earth. I do remember in the early days of Lc0 where it would miss simple tactics and although things have dramatically improved I am wondering if some remnants remain.
Last edited by M ANSARI on Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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M ANSARI
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Re: Has Stockfish NNUE reached it's limit now?

Post by M ANSARI » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:05 am

Dpost
Last edited by M ANSARI on Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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M ANSARI
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Re: Has Stockfish NNUE reached it's limit now?

Post by M ANSARI » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:06 am

DPost

ernest
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Re: Has Stockfish NNUE reached it's limit now?

Post by ernest » Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:52 am

Jouni wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:08 am
Suddenly +10 in NCM testing for latest SF version. Really unexpected and weird :? !
The jump appears to be confirmed on NCM for the just last Stockfish dev (20201218)... :)

OneTrickPony
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Re: Has Stockfish NNUE reached it's limit now?

Post by OneTrickPony » Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:13 am

And in cccc, Classical lost to Lc0 in 2 pawns handicap.
This is an amazing game, SF NNUE is quite clueless about it as well it takes a lot of hand holding to convince it white is actually winning after 23...dxc4, Leela sees it instantly.
When you run the position after white's 23th move Stockfish thinks 23...dxc4 gives big advantage until depth 43 and only then switches to 43...a6.
It's fun going through the lines where SF on quite serious hardware (almost 60M nodes/s in those positions) is jumping from -3 to +5 :)

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