How many NN Engines are there ?

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dkappe
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Re: How many NN Engines are there ?

Post by dkappe » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:40 pm

No one mentions the terror of the TCEC QL: a0lite!

Madeleine Birchfield
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Re: How many NN Engines are there ?

Post by Madeleine Birchfield » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:59 pm

dkappe wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:40 pm
No one mentions the terror of the TCEC QL: a0lite!
The unspoken assumption in this thread is that engines have to have alpha-beta search. I personally would add a0lite and Leela to Sylwy's list as while they do not have alpha-beta search, they do work on the CPU alone and so are comparable. Scorpio also recently implemented NNUE so it should be on the list as well.

mwyoung
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Re: How many NN Engines are there ?

Post by mwyoung » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:07 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:59 pm
Sylwy wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:23 pm
:wink: ..................some engines have new versions..... but the essence is in this table................ :wink:

Image
Can somebody here run a tournament of all the NN and NNUE engines Besides SF NNUE, Komodo Dragon, and Lela, which are obviously the strongest one. and post it here or create a Link on Youtube.com ?
Sure I can do this easily. I have Dragon, Lc0, Stockfish on my system.

Just add the engines you want, and a link to the engines for me to add them. And I will run your tournament.
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.

Chessqueen
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Re: How many NN Engines are there ?

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:27 am

mwyoung wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:07 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:59 pm
Sylwy wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:23 pm
:wink: ..................some engines have new versions..... but the essence is in this table................ :wink:

Image
Can somebody here run a tournament of all the NN and NNUE engines Besides SF NNUE, Komodo Dragon, and Lela, which are obviously the strongest one. and post it here or create a Link on Youtube.com ?
Sure I can do this easily. I have Dragon, Lc0, Stockfish on my system.

Just add the engines you want, and a link to the engines for me to add them. And I will run your tournament.
The only one that I do NOT see here on this list is aOlite and Tornado NNUE, but this list should be sufficient to start for the first time to have an Only NNUE separate ratings just like Graham have a separate rating for standard ab and FRC, and you could be the person running this NNUE matches here and whenever somebody add NNUE to their engine you can include them on your NNUE rating list. I strongly believe that Defense and Vajolet chess would greatly benefit from adding NNUE. I see that Nemorino NNUE has become extremely strong after adding NNUE take a look here https://tcec-chess.com/live.html

mwyoung
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Re: How many NN Engines are there ?

Post by mwyoung » Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:43 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:27 am
mwyoung wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:07 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:59 pm
Sylwy wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:23 pm
:wink: ..................some engines have new versions..... but the essence is in this table................ :wink:

Image
Can somebody here run a tournament of all the NN and NNUE engines Besides SF NNUE, Komodo Dragon, and Lela, which are obviously the strongest one. and post it here or create a Link on Youtube.com ?
Sure I can do this easily. I have Dragon, Lc0, Stockfish on my system.

Just add the engines you want, and a link to the engines for me to add them. And I will run your tournament.
The only one that I do NOT see here on this list is aOlite and Tornado NNUE, but this list should be sufficient to start for the first time to have an Only NNUE separate ratings just like Graham have a separate rating for standard ab and FRC, and you could be the person running this NNUE matches here and whenever somebody add NNUE to their engine you can include them on your NNUE rating list. I strongly believe that Defense and Vajolet chess would greatly benefit from adding NNUE. I see that Nemorino NNUE has become extremely strong after adding NNUE take a look here https://tcec-chess.com/live.html
You should not separate types of engine and creating a separate rating list. This only makes sense creating separate rating list with chess variants. Like FRC! Your ratings pool should include every engine the can play that form of chess.
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.

mar
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Re: How many NN Engines are there ?

Post by mar » Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:05 am

how is Halogen "NNUE", seriously?! it uses the most common-sense and natural topology, 768xnx1, (n used to be 128 now 256) - that's 50 times less weights than "NNUE" topo

since 768 is a very natural way to represent the input (2*6*64) and it's also very sparse (up to 32 out of these 768 is nonzero),
that's 32*256 actually for the 1st set of weights (or less as the game progresses) or 8448 ops, I bet this can be fast enough without any extra accumulator/state that's actually the key of "efficiently updated" in NNUE.
also, since the partial dot product of input vs 1st hidden layer weights (because you only care about nonzero input which is 1), you don't actually need to multiply anything and simply sum the appropriate weights
Martin Sedlak

Chessqueen
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Re: How many NN Engines are there ?

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:03 am

Sylwy wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:23 pm
:wink: ..................some engines have new versions..... but the essence is in this table................ :wink:

Image
I was just wondering how much would Houdini 6 64 would improve if somebody make a SF Net NNUE to work with it ?

AndrewGrant
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Re: How many NN Engines are there ?

Post by AndrewGrant » Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:54 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:03 am
I was just wondering how much would Houdini 6 64 would improve if somebody make a SF Net NNUE to work with it ?
+180 Elo. Ethereal is nearly equal to Houdini 6; Ethereal gains +180 elo with an SF Network.

Chessqueen
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Full name: George Pichard

Re: How many NN Engines are there ?

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:24 pm

AndrewGrant wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:54 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:03 am
I was just wondering how much would Houdini 6 64 would improve if somebody make a SF Net NNUE to work with it ?
+180 Elo. Ethereal is nearly equal to Houdini 6; Ethereal gains +180 elo with an SF Network.
In that case if Ethereal was equal to Houdini 6 and gained another +180 elo with the addition of SF Network it should be in the top 4 or 5 engines, congratulations :roll:

Note: So who will test all these NN engines including Tornado which I do NOT see here :?:

AndrewGrant
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Re: How many NN Engines are there ?

Post by AndrewGrant » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:29 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:24 pm
AndrewGrant wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:54 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:03 am
I was just wondering how much would Houdini 6 64 would improve if somebody make a SF Net NNUE to work with it ?
+180 Elo. Ethereal is nearly equal to Houdini 6; Ethereal gains +180 elo with an SF Network.
In that case if Ethereal was equal to Houdini 6 and gained another +180 elo with the addition of SF Network it should be in the top 4 or 5 engines, congratulations :roll:

Note: So who will test all these NN engines including Tornado which I do NOT see here :?:
Its already in the top 4 or 5 engines. Houdini and Fire are clones.
Stockfish, Komodo, Ethereal, Leela. Top 4 engines, in no particular order.

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