CCC has serious hardware update!

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mwyoung
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Re: CCC has serious hardware update!

Post by mwyoung » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:10 am

brianr wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:58 am
Engine was stockfish.avx2.halfkp_256x2-32-32.profile-nnue.2020-07-19.exe
Net was gekkehenker2020-06-27.bin
I will stop testing then. As this is not a engine we are talking about.

I know something was not right. We are talking about at minimum Stockfish 12 NNUE. And Dragon NNUE....

Stockfish 12 will crush Stockfish 11 by over 100 Elo at this TC on 1 core. Not the result you had.
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.

brianr
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Re: CCC has serious hardware update!

Post by brianr » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:19 am

The engine used was SF with NNUE.
It scales fine.
It does not matter how much it won by, just that it scaled reasonably.
I don't know about other versions.

mwyoung
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Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:00 pm

Re: CCC has serious hardware update!

Post by mwyoung » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:31 am

brianr wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:19 am
The engine used was SF with NNUE.
It scales fine.
It does not matter how much it won by, just that it scaled reasonably.
I don't know about other versions.
Yes it does matter. It is not how NNUE behaves today. Under the same conditions as your test, right now SF 251220 is killing Stockfish 11 by over 200 Elo. And that is expected, not sub 50 Elo. You have room to scale at 50 Elo.
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.

brianr
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Re: CCC has serious hardware update!

Post by brianr » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:35 am

Ah, OK.
I'll look forward to seeing the table of your matches 1, 2, 4, and 8 CPUs then.
A different result would be interesting.

mwyoung
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Re: CCC has serious hardware update!

Post by mwyoung » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:39 am

AndrewGrant wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:23 pm
mwyoung wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:19 pm
Let me get this right. I posted data, you chimed in and gave a B.S. formula that NNUE clearly ignored in my posted data. And saying I was being deceitful.

I post independent data from CCRL. Again showing NNUE ignores your scaling formula. And then you also trash CCRL testing.

And now you want me to gather all the data for you..... :roll:

That would have been much wiser to do that first :lol:
Not at all. I am running games now to produce an argument that NNUE scales the same as other engines. I am asking you to provide a complete, all-in-one-place layout of the datapoints you believe give weight to your view, and for you to showcase those specific datapoints and explain why you believe they are the way they are.

I am doing the opposite of what you allege. I want to know exactly what your argument is, so that I can understand your position completely. If I know your position, and what fuels it, perhaps I will agree. Perhaps I won't be able to refute it. Who knows? Not me, at least not until my games finish playing and you present an argument.

Please copy paste the data that you are looking at here, and write up a brief summary of what is being shown.
You have some memory problems. As you were in this thread also. And it is basically the same argument that Lasko made and lost. Almost exactly. So here is that thread and data. No need to repeat the same thread.

You want to take what you know about SF classical, and apply it to Stockfish NNUE. As Lasko did.....

But here is what you need to know. SF NNUE is totally different, and does not obey the same rules, and does not behave like SF Classical.

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... g&start=50

CCRL and CEGT data you can get on your own.
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.

brianr
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:01 pm

Re: CCC has serious hardware update!

Post by brianr » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:48 am

Following the link to your tests I noticed you were playing the same engine against itself I think.
My match was SF-NNUE vs SF11, so they are not the same.
Might that account for the different results?

mwyoung
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Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:00 pm

Re: CCC has serious hardware update!

Post by mwyoung » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:59 am

brianr wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:48 am
Following the link to your tests I noticed you were playing the same engine against itself I think.
My match was SF-NNUE vs SF11, so they are not the same.
Might that account for the different results?
Here is the current standing in your test. Stockfish 251220(1 core) vs Stockfish 11(1 core) +11 =9 -0 TP = 215 Elo.
Last edited by mwyoung on Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.

AndrewGrant
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Full name: Andrew Grant
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Re: CCC has serious hardware update!

Post by AndrewGrant » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:59 am

mwyoung wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:39 am
You have some memory problems. As you were in this thread also. And it is basically the same argument that Lasko made and lost. Almost exactly. So here is that thread and data. No need to repeat the same thread.
You are yet to present any such argument. I created a new thread for it, if you care to make an argument you should post it there.http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76190 Otherwise there is no particular reason to believe that NNUE has changed the nature of engine scaling. I have given you numerous opportunities to present something, but you've declined each time. You are free to believe what you wish, but others who are not set in one way should take a look at my thread and the data, and see if they can come up with their own conclusion.

Vinvin
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Full name: Vincent Lejeune

Re: CCC has serious hardware update!

Post by Vinvin » Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:31 am

Jouni wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:30 am
CPUs: 2 x AMD EPYC 7H12
GPU: 2x A100 (40 GB GPU memory)
Cores: 256 cores (128 physical)
RAM: 512GB DIMM DDR4 2933 MHz (0.3 ns)
SSD: 2x Micron 5210 MTFD (2TB) in RAID1
OS: CentOS 8

What's TCEC answer :) ?
Now, on CCC and TCEC, SF runs at about the same speed : 100 Mn/s in the opening and 150 Mn/s in late middlegame.

Leo
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Full name: Leo Anger

Re: CCC has serious hardware update!

Post by Leo » Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:55 am

mwyoung wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:06 am
Jouni wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:30 am
CPUs: 2 x AMD EPYC 7H12
GPU: 2x A100 (40 GB GPU memory)
Cores: 256 cores (128 physical)
RAM: 512GB DIMM DDR4 2933 MHz (0.3 ns)
SSD: 2x Micron 5210 MTFD (2TB) in RAID1
OS: CentOS 8

What's TCEC answer :) ?
Why do they need to answer. Both have massive hardware. Will it change any results.

If you notice even on our much smaller hardware. The ranking of the engines does not really change.

And this is also what I am seeing in my testing.
I was thinking the same thing.
Advanced Micro Devices fan.

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