+100 elo breakthrough in new rewritten Lco engine ( Ceres)

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JJJ
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Re: +100 elo breakthrough in new rewritten Lco engine ( Ceres)

Post by JJJ » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:17 am

Maybe Lczero will be the number 1 again !!!!!

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Re: +100 elo breakthrough in new rewritten Lco engine ( Ceres)

Post by corres » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:19 am

Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:04 am
...
The 100+ elo gain and 2.3 x speed gain are mentioned on post 2, about
1. Hardwares
2. Testing conditions, time control and
3. Opening book
...
It seems to me an average ~ 50% enhancement in speed and a +30, +40 enhancement in Elo is a real supposing.
It is enough to win against Stockfish+NNUE but it is not a great breakthru for NN engines.

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Werner
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Re: +100 elo breakthrough in new rewritten Lco engine ( Ceres)

Post by Werner » Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:28 am

For all users of a GTX Card there is no improvement in speed. I made an example with my GTX 1650 running Ceres with LS15 and LC0 0.26.3 with LS15 under Arena 3.5.1 using a position from old WM test:

with Ceres,LS15, GTX 1650 nps 365
FEN: rnbr2k1/pp3p2/1qp3pp/4Q1N1/4P3/2P3P1/PP3PBP/R3R1K1 w - - 0 1
8/15 00:07 2k 331 +3,04 Sg5-f3 Lc8-g4 De5-f4 Lg4xf3 Lg2xf3 Sb8-d7 e4-e5 Sd7-c5 Te1-e2 h6-h5 Df4-f6 Td8-e8 Ta1-d1 Ta8-d8 Td1-d6
8/1 00:07 3k 337 +3,11 Lg2-h3
8/1 00:08 3k 340 +3,07 De5-d4
8/1 00:08 3k 346 +3,04 Te1-b1
8/16 00:09 3k 350 +2,97 Sg5xf7 Kg8xf7 Te1-e3 Kf7-g8 Lg2-f1 Sb8-d7 Lf1-c4+ Kg8-h7 De5-e7+ Kh7-h8 Te3-f3 Td8-g8 Lc4xg8 Kh8xg8 Ta1-d1 Db6-c5
8/16 00:10 4k 357 +2,95 Sg5xf7 Kg8xf7 Te1-e3 Kf7-g8 Lg2-f1 Sb8-d7 Lf1-c4+ Kg8-h7 De5-e7+ Kh7-h8 Te3-f3 Td8-g8 Lc4xg8 Kh8xg8 Ta1-d1 Db6-c5

with LC0 0.26.3 Cuda, LS15, GTX 1650, nps 1426
FEN: rnbr2k1/pp3p2/1qp3pp/4Q1N1/4P3/2P3P1/PP3PBP/R3R1K1 w - - 0 1
9/18 00:03 4k 1k +3,42 Sg5-f3 Lc8-g4 De5-f4 Lg4xf3 Lg2xf3 Sb8-d7 e4-e5 Sd7-c5 Te1-e2 h6-h5 Df4-h6 Td8-e8 Lf3xh5 g6xh5
9/18 00:03 5k 1k +3,47 Sg5xf7 Kg8xf7 Te1-e3 Kf7-g8 Lg2-f1 Td8-d7 De5-e8+ Kg8-g7 De8xc8 Td7-d8 Dc8-e6 Sb8-d7 Te3-f3 Td8-f8
9/18 00:03 5k 1k +3,37 Sg5-f3 Lc8-g4 De5-f4 Lg4xf3 Lg2xf3 Sb8-d7 e4-e5 Sd7-c5 Te1-e2 h6-h5 Df4-h6 Td8-e8 Lf3xh5 g6xh5
9/18 00:04 6k 1k +3,48 Sg5xf7 Kg8xf7 Te1-e3 Kf7-g8 Lg2-f1 Td8-d7 De5-e8+ Kg8-g7 De8xc8 Td7-d8 Dc8-e6 Sb8-d7 Te3-f3 Td8-f8
9/19 00:04 6k 1k +3,78 Sg5xf7 Kg8xf7 Te1-e3 Kf7-g8 Lg2-f1 Sb8-d7 Lf1-c4+ Kg8-h7 De5-e7+ Kh7-h8 Te3-f3 Td8-g8 Lc4xg8 Kh8xg8 Ta1-d1 Db6xb2 De7-e8+

So maybe there is an improvement for RTX cards. Here even LC0 0.26.3 is running faster with the CUDNN package using CUDNN-fp16 backend.
Werner

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Re: +100 elo breakthrough in new rewritten Lco engine ( Ceres)

Post by Werewolf » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:37 am

How many cpu threads does it use? Same as Lc0?

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Re: +100 elo breakthrough in new rewritten Lco engine ( Ceres)

Post by AdminX » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:55 am

Werewolf wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:37 am
How many cpu threads does it use? Same as Lc0?
Here is a view from Resource Monitor. MY system is a i7-4790, 32 GB Ram and a RTX 2070 Super

Image
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Werner
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Re: +100 elo breakthrough in new rewritten Lco engine ( Ceres)

Post by Werner » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:56 am

I used 2 CPU threads for LC0 as set in lc0.config. I hope Ceres is using the same configuration. The taskmanager is showing the same CPU usage here 12% from 8 threads (I have 4CPU)
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Re: +100 elo breakthrough in new rewritten Lco engine ( Ceres)

Post by AdminX » Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:28 am

Albert Silver wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:02 am
How does that compare with Lc0 v26?
Good Morning Albert,

I normally use the Dev Versions of LC0 and not Version 26. I will say that it appears to give me slight speed increases on my RTX card, even more so as games near the endgame phase on Big Nets when compared the versions I had been using. It does look like there may be some hope for improvement being as this is an early release. +100 Elo ??? I don't think so.
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Re: +100 elo breakthrough in new rewritten Lco engine ( Ceres)

Post by AdminX » Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:15 pm

Here is a 30 minute time control game with Komodo Dragon

My database has this (Nbc6) as the novelty



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Re: +100 elo breakthrough in new rewritten Lco engine ( Ceres)

Post by MMarco » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:44 pm

Albert Silver wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:02 am
How does that compare with Lc0 v26?
I did a quick bench on my 3080 of CERES and LC0-26.3-cuda. Default settings for CERES, defaults and NNcache=10M, smart-pruning-factor=0 for Lc0. The measured "speedup" (if we can say so, we are comparing nps from two different engines): 30x384 = 15%, 20x256 = 28%, 10x128 = 68%.
Startposition, go movetime 60000

30x384
*****************
LC0-66740
info depth 12 seldepth 42 time 59800 nodes 1383904 score cp 10 nps 25720
CERES-66740
info depth 14 seldepth 36 time 60006 nodes 1773283 score cp 8 nps 29552

20x256
******************
LC0-LS-15
info depth 23 seldepth 68 time 59800 nodes 4135219 score cp 15 nps 77013
CERES-LS-15
info depth 25 seldepth 53 time 56979 nodes 5618322 score cp 11 nps 98603

10x128
*******************
LC0-703810
info depth 14 seldepth 50 time 59800 nodes 8140461 score cp 12 nps 151242
CERES-703810
info depth 17 seldepth 51 time 59991 nodes 15210428 score cp 11 nps 253544

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Re: +100 elo breakthrough in new rewritten Lco engine ( Ceres)

Post by Albert Silver » Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:56 pm

MMarco wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:44 pm
Albert Silver wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:02 am
How does that compare with Lc0 v26?
I did a quick bench on my 3080 of CERES and LC0-26.3-cuda. Default settings for CERES, defaults and NNcache=10M, smart-pruning-factor=0 for Lc0. The measured "speedup" (if we can say so, we are comparing nps from two different engines): 30x384 = 15%, 20x256 = 28%, 10x128 = 68%.
Startposition, go movetime 60000

30x384
*****************
LC0-66740
info depth 12 seldepth 42 time 59800 nodes 1383904 score cp 10 nps 25720
CERES-66740
info depth 14 seldepth 36 time 60006 nodes 1773283 score cp 8 nps 29552

20x256
******************
LC0-LS-15
info depth 23 seldepth 68 time 59800 nodes 4135219 score cp 15 nps 77013
CERES-LS-15
info depth 25 seldepth 53 time 56979 nodes 5618322 score cp 11 nps 98603

10x128
*******************
LC0-703810
info depth 14 seldepth 50 time 59800 nodes 8140461 score cp 12 nps 151242
CERES-703810
info depth 17 seldepth 51 time 59991 nodes 15210428 score cp 11 nps 253544
Ok, thanks. This is very interesting and actually seems to match what I suspected is happening. While there may be a normal speedup, if modest, over Lc0 v26, its biggest strength (for play, not for development) is removing the scaling shackles. Meaning smaller nets will gain the most from powerful cards, and above all will suffer less from the scaling issues on multi-gpu setups. Time will tell how accurate this read is, but it is what I am gathering from the results.
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