Drawkiller practically lost for black

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Dann Corbit, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Post Reply
User avatar
Nordlandia
Posts: 2745
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:38 pm
Location: Sortland, Norway

Drawkiller practically lost for black

Post by Nordlandia » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:52 pm

The standard drawkiller opening setup is virtually lost for black. I have tested this position many times and in almost every game black is losing. The problem lies in the weak pawn on c7. If the King stand on b8 instead, that pawn can be defended and a vital tempo is not needed to used on that.

Black is severly underdog with the King in the corner. Pawn on c7 is the new f2/f7 achilles heel essentially.

1. e3 d6 2. Nh3 Nc6 3. Bd3 Be6 4. O-O Qd7 5. Kh1 O-O-O 6. Re1 Kb8 7. Bf1 Ka8 8. Ng1 Qe8 9. Nf3 Bc8 10. Ng1 Nb8


These are the two move-sequences, which create the „SALC“-like king- and rook-positions on the chessboard:

1. e3 d6 2. Nh3 Nc6 3. Bd3 Be6 4. O-O Qd7 5. Kh1 O-O-O 6. Re1 Kb8 7. Bf1 Ka8 8. Ng1 Qe8 9. Nf3 Bc8 10. Ng1 Nb8

1. d3 e6 2. Be3 Bd6 3. Nc3 Nh6 4. Qd2 O-O 5. O-O-O Kh8 6. Kb1 Re8 7. Ka1 Bf8 8. Qe1 Ng8 9. Bc1 Nf6 10. Nb1 Ng8
My point is that this position is more balanced.



Alternatively perhaps this modification can be done.
White can castle queenside, black kingside. 0-0-0 vs 0-0 counterbalance each other as white starts.


User avatar
Guenther
Posts: 3836
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:33 am
Location: Regensburg, Germany
Full name: Guenther Simon
Contact:

Re: Drawkiller practically lost for black

Post by Guenther » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:24 pm

Nordlandia wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:52 pm
The standard drawkiller opening setup is virtually lost for black. I have tested this position many times and in almost every game black is losing. The problem lies in the weak pawn on c7. If the King stand on b8 instead, that pawn can be defended and a vital tempo is not needed to used on that.
Do you really expect some replies here, or even some discussion, if you don't show any stats, nor games, not even single positions?
You say you have have tested this many times and still you just post a headline 'theory' w/o any proofs?
https://rwbc-chess.de
HGM@'chessqueen' 2018-present, aka: 'George' 2013-2016, 'pichy' 2006-2013, 'Jorge Pichard' 2000-2006 (old forum) wrote: http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 79#p789713

pohl4711
Posts: 1506
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:25 am
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: Drawkiller practically lost for black

Post by pohl4711 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:40 pm

Nordlandia wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:52 pm
The standard drawkiller opening setup is virtually lost for black. I have tested this position many times and in almost every game black is losing. The problem lies in the weak pawn on c7. If the King stand on b8 instead, that pawn can be defended and a vital tempo is not needed to used on that.

Black is severly underdog with the King in the corner. Pawn on c7 is the new f2/f7 achilles heel essentially.

1. e3 d6 2. Nh3 Nc6 3. Bd3 Be6 4. O-O Qd7 5. Kh1 O-O-O 6. Re1 Kb8 7. Bf1 Ka8 8. Ng1 Qe8 9. Nf3 Bc8 10. Ng1 Nb8


These are the two move-sequences, which create the „SALC“-like king- and rook-positions on the chessboard:

1. e3 d6 2. Nh3 Nc6 3. Bd3 Be6 4. O-O Qd7 5. Kh1 O-O-O 6. Re1 Kb8 7. Bf1 Ka8 8. Ng1 Qe8 9. Nf3 Bc8 10. Ng1 Nb8

1. d3 e6 2. Be3 Bd6 3. Nc3 Nh6 4. Qd2 O-O 5. O-O-O Kh8 6. Kb1 Re8 7. Ka1 Bf8 8. Qe1 Ng8 9. Bc1 Nf6 10. Nb1 Ng8
My point is that this position is more balanced.



Alternatively perhaps this modification can be done.
White can castle queenside, black kingside. 0-0-0 vs 0-0 counterbalance each other as white starts.

So what?!
First of all: I never said, that it could make any sense, to play games from the Drawkiller starting position. All my Drawkiller openinglines add several pawn moves to this starting position and all endpositions of these openinglines were checked by Komodo.
Second: The Drawkiller Elo-Zoom openings base on a different starting position, with rooks on a/h and Kings on b/g. But the same here: It is a stupid idea, to use the Drawkiller Elo-Zoom starting position for playing. All Drawkiller Elo-Zoom openinglines add several pawn moves to this starting position and all endpositions of these openinglines were checked by Komodo, too.

https://www.sp-cc.de/drawkiller-openings.htm

From there (always a good idea, to read, before writing...)

The Drawkiller EloZoom lines look different and lead to different non-pawn piece-patterns on the board:
1. e3 d6 2. Bd3 Be6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. Kf1 Kd7 5. Kg1 Kc8 6. Qe1 Kb8 7. Qd1 Qe8 8. Bf1 Bc8 9. Ne1 Nd8
1. d3 e6 2. Be3 Bd6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Kd2 Kf8 5. Kc1 Kg8 6. Kb1 Bf8 7. Qe1 Qe8 8. Bc1 Qd8 9. Nd1 Ne8

(The kings are on b and g, the rooks stay on a and h and the knight, which was on the field, the king is now, is on d or e) - the main ideas of Drawkiller stay the same here: Kings on different sides of the board, queens not on the same row, all non-pawn pieces on the 1st and 8th rank...


The Drawkiller openings were filtered out of this raw-data with Komodo 11.2.2. Komodo checked all endpositions (using pgnscanner-tool), running on a i7-6700HQ 2.6GHz Notebook (Skylake CPU) with all 4 cores and 2048 Hash, Contempt=0.
.... No endposition of any Drawkiller opening gives a huge advantage to white or black! Especially the Balanced and EloZoom files have very small eval-intervals. I believe no other opening set has such balanced endpositions...

User avatar
Nordlandia
Posts: 2745
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:38 pm
Location: Sortland, Norway

Re: Drawkiller practically lost for black

Post by Nordlandia » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:51 pm

What about this modification. Now the weak pawn is defended.


pohl4711
Posts: 1506
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:25 am
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: Drawkiller practically lost for black

Post by pohl4711 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:36 pm

Nordlandia wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:51 pm
What about this modification. Now the weak pawn is defended.

Impossible. The bishop can not move out of the way, to make the king-travel to the edge possible.

Mars
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:11 am
Full name: Martin Luzian

Re: Drawkiller practically lost for black

Post by Mars » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm

This one is legal.




pohl4711
Posts: 1506
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:25 am
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: Drawkiller practically lost for black

Post by pohl4711 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:51 am

Mars wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm
This one is legal.



Correct. But, the problem of the weak c7-pawn does not exist in the Drawkiller opening-sets, because in all endpositions several pawns were moved and the endposition was checked by Komodo.
I can only repeat: Use the Drawkiller opening-sets, not the Drawkiller starting-position. And why should anybody use the starting-position? It is only one position...For playing a 2 games engine head-to-head test??? Useless and senseless.
If anybody uses Drawkiller in a way, that is false and not recommended, Hauke Lutz and me are not responsible, if it is not working properly.
One design-idea of Drawkiller was, to make it as close as possible to a normal chess-position, were white and black castled to opposite sides (SALC...). And because of this, the white rook should be on e1, if the king is on h1 (for example), because this is close to the chess move-sequence 0-0 first, then rook to e1. Which is a quite normal move sequence in normal chess openings. And when the black king is on a8, then black rook on d8 (when 0-0-0 is played in a normal chess opening, the rook stands on d8, immediately).

User avatar
Nordlandia
Posts: 2745
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:38 pm
Location: Sortland, Norway

Re: Drawkiller practically lost for black

Post by Nordlandia » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:01 pm

Yes pohl. My intent was to highlight that the example position has the drawback of the c7 pawn.

In the games i have tested, white usually move the knight to b5 early on with the aid of the queen on tha a-file.

Post Reply