Difficulties using an engine to understand my mistakes

[KLc]

I'd like to use an engine to understand my mistakes in games I have played. I have great difficulties with this, however, because most of the time I just don't understand why a move I played is bad and the engine suggestion is better. It's obvious if I have a hanging piece and loose a queen, okay. But otherwise? I tried to first focus on blunders and then mistakes, ignoring any inaccuracies. But I have many examples where I'm more than a pawn off but just don't really see why. I'm not an expert player, that's one reason of course. But do you have any other suggestions how to get more out of an engine for a weak player? (Getting a coach would be one way of course but let's stick to engines).

I tried MultiPV analysis to see other options of play; I tried limited depth (just 8-10) to mimic my small brain; I used different engines (I thought that Shredder 12 was a bit more sensible with scores and moves). But none of that helped much.

[JohnW]

Have you tried using Fritz and the "Analysis" functionality? It will annotate your game, placing a "?" where you made a mistake and showing what you should have played.

[abgursu]

I'd like to use an engine to understand my mistakes in games I have played. I have great difficulties with this, however, because most of the time I just don't understand why a move I played is bad and the engine suggestion is better. It's obvious if I have a hanging piece and loose a queen, okay. But otherwise? I tried to first focus on blunders and then mistakes, ignoring any inaccuracies. But I have many examples where I'm more than a pawn off but just don't really see why. I'm not an expert player, that's one reason of course. But do you have any other suggestions how to get more out of an engine for a weak player? (Getting a coach would be one way of course but let's stick to engines).

I tried MultiPV analysis to see other options of play; I tried limited depth (just 8-10) to mimic my small brain; I used different engines (I thought that Shredder 12 was a bit more sensible with scores and moves). But none of that helped much.

When I was a bad player I used to go forward with engine in my line 'till I understand why. If I still don't understand why my variation is not good enough, I turn back into first position and see if evals are the same. And if my variation is still worse than first, then I go forward into engine's line but when I doubt about another move in engine's line , then I go my line in my position again, the same logic happening in every move. I built a move tree with this in my mind. My lines are like branches and engine's lines are like main branches (the biggest ones).
Engines and other programs can help us but everything results inside us.

[KLc]

Have you tried using Fritz and the "Analysis" functionality? It will annotate your game, placing a "?" where you made a mistake and showing what you should have played.

Yes, but the problem is: if it's not a total blunder where I lose a pawn or piece, I can't really say at the end of the PV why it's better and my move was wrong.
Edit: I haven't been using Fritz for a while but do realize now that the annotations are more useful actually.

[Ferdy]

I'd like to use an engine to understand my mistakes in games I have played. I have great difficulties with this, however, because most of the time I just don't understand why a move I played is bad and the engine suggestion is better. It's obvious if I have a hanging piece and loose a queen, okay. But otherwise? I tried to first focus on blunders and then mistakes, ignoring any inaccuracies. But I have many examples where I'm more than a pawn off but just don't really see why. I'm not an expert player, that's one reason of course. But do you have any other suggestions how to get more out of an engine for a weak player? (Getting a coach would be one way of course but let's stick to engines).

I tried MultiPV analysis to see other options of play; I tried limited depth (just 8-10) to mimic my small brain; I used different engines (I thought that Shredder 12 was a bit more sensible with scores and moves). But none of that helped much.

After learning to gain material, you probably need to learn small positional advantages. Try the point count system. There is a book on this. Most engines will not reveal this but if you follow the pv of the engine and know about Plus Points and Minus points from point count, you will probably appreciate the pv output of the engine.

Most players do not understand the Bishop-pair advantage. You may try to learn from it for example. These are the building blocks of a master. They are very good at using the Plus, avoiding the Minus and mixing it that is they are good traders - I will give you the bishop pair in exchange for doubled pawn for example. I will give you a passed pawn but I will control the 7th rank with my rook.

If you can accumulate many plus points the tactics will come naturally, but you have to find the tactical blows, most players may already have the superior position but could not convert because of weak tactical skills to finish the game.

Played a game in lichess I use the "superior development" plus point mainly but I give up material for it, and then my opponent just blundered.

[pgn][Event "Casual Bullet game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/rJsaGhQw"]
[Date "2021.01.12"]
[White "me"]
[Black "Anonymous"]
[Result "1-0"]
[UTCDate "2021.01.12"]
[UTCTime "14:40:12"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[Variant "Standard"]
[TimeControl "120+0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[Opening "Blackmar-Diemer Gambit: Zeller Defense"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. e4 d5 2. d4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Bf5 { D00 Blackmar-Diemer Gambit: Zeller Defense } 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 Qxd4 8. Bd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O O-O-O 10. Bb5 e6 11. Bxc6 bxc6 12. Qxc6 Bb4 13. Bg5 Qb6 14. Rxd8# { White wins by checkmate. } 1-0[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

I'd like to use an engine to understand my mistakes in games I have played. I have great difficulties with this, however, because most of the time I just don't understand why a move I played is bad and the engine suggestion is better. It's obvious if I have a hanging piece and loose a queen, okay. But otherwise? I tried to first focus on blunders and then mistakes, ignoring any inaccuracies. But I have many examples where I'm more than a pawn off but just don't really see why. I'm not an expert player, that's one reason of course. But do you have any other suggestions how to get more out of an engine for a weak player? (Getting a coach would be one way of course but let's stick to engines).

I tried MultiPV analysis to see other options of play; I tried limited depth (just 8-10) to mimic my small brain; I used different engines (I thought that Shredder 12 was a bit more sensible with scores and moves). But none of that helped much.

After learning to gain material, you probably need to learn small positional advantages. Try the point count system. There is a book on this. Most engines will not reveal this but if you follow the pv of the engine and know about Plus Points and Minus points from point count, you will probably appreciate the pv output of the engine.

Most players do not understand the Bishop-pair advantage. You may try to learn from it for example. These are the building blocks of a master. They are very good at using the Plus, avoiding the Minus and mixing it that is they are good traders - I will give you the bishop pair in exchange for doubled pawn for example. I will give you a passed pawn but I will control the 7th rank with my rook. If you can accumulate many plus points the tactics will come naturally, but you have to find the tactical blows, most players may already have the superior position but could not convert because of weak tactical skills to finish the game.

Played a game in lichess I use the "superior development" plus point mainly but I give up material for it, and then my opponent just blundered.

[pgn][Event "Casual Bullet game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/rJsaGhQw"]
[Date "2021.01.12"]
[White "me"]
[Black "Anonymous"]
[Result "1-0"]
[UTCDate "2021.01.12"]
[UTCTime "14:40:12"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[Variant "Standard"]
[TimeControl "120+0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[Opening "Blackmar-Diemer Gambit: Zeller Defense"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. e4 d5 2. d4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Bf5 { D00 Blackmar-Diemer Gambit: Zeller Defense } 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 Qxd4 8. Bd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O O-O-O 10. Bb5 e6 11. Bxc6 bxc6 12. Qxc6 Bb4 13. Bg5 Qb6 14. Rxd8# { White wins by checkmate. } 1-0[/pgn]

It does NOT cost too much money to get an online trainer, I am paying one from India for almost 16 months and when you play a game against another human or an engine close to your strength he will evaluate it and send you a page of NOTES with possible improvement and why your moves were not the best chosen one and how to improve, take for example this position and pick any engine close to your rating and try to beat it or an endgame or a position of opposition. and you will improve rapidly, if any of us see any improvement or why your move was inferior we will make suggestion. Take this position for instance. This position will give you a great practice to use your Knights or if you play the reverse with Black piece to use your Bishops properly.

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Date "2021.01.10"]
[Round "2"]
[White "You"]
[Black "any engine = to your Elo"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[Time "16:37:21"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[TimeControl "1200+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "2b1kb2/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1N2K1N1 w - - 12 1"][/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

Well since nobody decided to try and play this position against an engine which they believe it is close to their rating, I pick BiKJump once more which is suppose to be rated around 2121, but that is using endgame TB, which I did NOT use for this purpose since I as a human do NOT have access to an EGTB. Most of engines rated less than 2100 are tested here with EGTB, but against human without EGTB they do NOT perform as good as you can see here. Last month I finished reading Silman's Complete Endgame Course from beginner to Master, which my online trainer recommended me to purchase 6 months ago. Anyway here is the game


[pgn][Event "Testing my endgame knowledge"]
[Date "2021.01.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "ChessQueen"]
[Black "BiKJump"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2121"]
[Time "11:38:21"]
[WhiteElo "1930"]
[TimeControl "1800+5"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "2b1kb2/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1N2K1N1 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "111"]

1. c4 b6 2. Nc3 Bb7 3. e4 g6 4. Nge2 Bg7 5. d4 f5 6. f3 fxe4 7. fxe4 c6 8.
b4 e5 9. d5 Bf8 10. b5 cxb5 11. Nxb5 a6 12. Nbc3 Bc5 13. Kd2 d6 14. Nc1 Bg1
15. h3 h5 16. Nd3 g5 17. Ne2 Bh2 18. Ne1 Bf4+ 19. Kd3 g4 20. Nxf4 exf4 21.
hxg4 hxg4 22. Kd4 Bc8 23. Nd3 f3 24. gxf3 gxf3 25. Ke3 a5 26. Kxf3 Ba6 27.
Nb2 Kd8 28. a4 Bc8 29. Nd1 Kc7 30. Nc3 Bh3 31. Nb5+ Kd7 32. Nd4 Bf1 33. Ne2
Ke7 34. Ke3 Kf6 35. Ng3 Bh3 36. Kf4 Ke7 37. Nf5+ Kd7 38. e5 dxe5+ 39. Kxe5
Bf1 40. Ne3 Bh3 41. Nd1 Bg4 42. Nc3 Kc7 43. Ne4 Bh3 44. Nf6 Bc8 45. Ne8+
Kd8 46. Ng7 Ke7 47. Ne6 Bd7 48. Nc7 Bxa4 49. Na8 Bd1 50. Nxb6 Kd8 51. Kd4
Kc7 52. c5 a4 53. Nc4 a3 54. Nxa3 Ba4 55. Nc4 Bb5 56. Ne5 Kd8 57. d6 Bf1
58. c6 Bh3 59. Kc5 Be6 60. Kb6 Bf5 61. c7+ Kc8 62. d7+ Bxd7 63. Nxd7 Kxd7
64. Kb7 Ke6 65. c8=Q+ Kf6 66. Qg4 Ke5 67. Kc6 Kf6 68. Kd6 Kf7 69. Qg5 Kf8
70. Ke6 Ke8 71. Qe7# 1-0[/pgn]

[Guenther]

[error 403 :: thread is hijacked by dumbqueen]

[Chessqueen]

Well since nobody decided to try and play this position against an engine which they believe it is close to their rating, I pick BiKJump once more which is suppose to be rated around 2121, but that is using endgame TB, which I did NOT use for this purpose since I as a human do NOT have access to an EGTB. Most of engines rated less than 2100 are tested here with EGTB, but against human without EGTB they do NOT perform as good as you can see here. Last month I finished reading Silman's Complete Endgame Course from beginner to Master, which my online trainer recommended me to purchase 6 months ago. Anyway here is the game


[pgn][Event "Testing my endgame knowledge"]
[Date "2021.01.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "ChessQueen"]
[Black "BiKJump"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2121"]
[Time "11:38:21"]
[WhiteElo "1930"]
[TimeControl "1800+5"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "2b1kb2/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1N2K1N1 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "111"]

1. c4 b6 2. Nc3 Bb7 3. e4 g6 4. Nge2 Bg7 5. d4 f5 6. f3 fxe4 7. fxe4 c6 8.
b4 e5 9. d5 Bf8 10. b5 cxb5 11. Nxb5 a6 12. Nbc3 Bc5 13. Kd2 d6 14. Nc1 Bg1
15. h3 h5 16. Nd3 g5 17. Ne2 Bh2 18. Ne1 Bf4+ 19. Kd3 g4 20. Nxf4 exf4 21.
hxg4 hxg4 22. Kd4 Bc8 23. Nd3 f3 24. gxf3 gxf3 25. Ke3 a5 26. Kxf3 Ba6 27.
Nb2 Kd8 28. a4 Bc8 29. Nd1 Kc7 30. Nc3 Bh3 31. Nb5+ Kd7 32. Nd4 Bf1 33. Ne2
Ke7 34. Ke3 Kf6 35. Ng3 Bh3 36. Kf4 Ke7 37. Nf5+ Kd7 38. e5 dxe5+ 39. Kxe5
Bf1 40. Ne3 Bh3 41. Nd1 Bg4 42. Nc3 Kc7 43. Ne4 Bh3 44. Nf6 Bc8 45. Ne8+
Kd8 46. Ng7 Ke7 47. Ne6 Bd7 48. Nc7 Bxa4 49. Na8 Bd1 50. Nxb6 Kd8 51. Kd4
Kc7 52. c5 a4 53. Nc4 a3 54. Nxa3 Ba4 55. Nc4 Bb5 56. Ne5 Kd8 57. d6 Bf1
58. c6 Bh3 59. Kc5 Be6 60. Kb6 Bf5 61. c7+ Kc8 62. d7+ Bxd7 63. Nxd7 Kxd7
64. Kb7 Ke6 65. c8=Q+ Kf6 66. Qg4 Ke5 67. Kc6 Kf6 68. Kd6 Kf7 69. Qg5 Kf8
70. Ke6 Ke8 71. Qe7# 1-0[/pgn]

There is some technique when playing versus a pair Bishops, according to Silman,s Book and it is very logical as well you have to close the diagonal as soon as possible which I did by move 9, and immediately centralize your King which BiKJump did NOT do and keep both Knights in the center of the boar controlling the most amount of squares. Also since the Black King was so far away I decided to trade the black Squrw bishp for one of my Knight and by the time that the Black King come close I already have won an extra pawn. The engine BiKJump without the EGTB did NOT had a clue of what I was doing to limit the 2 Bishops movements and control of the Board. Like I said before engine below 2150 without EGTB play very poorly the endgame. Anyway my online trainer after I sent this game to him was very proud of me