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positions when humans are stronger than engines

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:19 pm
by Uri Blass


Hopefully the following position is good enough.
sting also blunder by bxa7

try to play with your favourite engine with both sides.
I think that it can be a good starting position for engine-engine games to see the strong engines that know to avoid bxa7 and know to win with white.

After bxa7 Ra8 I believe that black should win with the simple plan Rxa7 b5 and later Bb7.

Re: positions when humans are stronger than engines

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:27 pm
by OWL
I think it is still a draw, so saying white can win is incorrect. If black just passes he cannot lose. Black has no weaknesses and he can just keep his pawns on the 7th

Re: positions when humans are stronger than engines

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:11 pm
by Uri Blass
You are probably right that it is a draw but I guess computers have the talent to lose with both sides against humans.

I do not expect engines to keep the pawns at h7 g7 f7 as black but to find a way to lose them in some way by starting by pushing the pawns forward.

Re: positions when humans are stronger than engines

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:11 pm
by Jouni
Tricky position. Lc0 don't consider bxa7 at all. It evaluates about -1 with 1.Bf3 f6 2.Kb2 Kf7 3.Kc3 Ke6 4.Kd4 h6 5.Bd1 Raa8 6.Ke4 f5+ 7.Kd3 Kf6 8.Bd4+ Kg5 9.Bxg7 h5 10.Be5 h4 11.Ke3 h3 12.Kf3 f4 13.Bxf4+ Kf6 14.Ke4. Lc0 is so stupid it don't understand end position is easy mate 1-0.

Re: positions when humans are stronger than engines

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:42 pm
by Nay Lin Tun
Uri Blass wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:19 pm


Hopefully the following position is good enough.
sting also blunder by bxa7

try to play with your favourite engine with both sides.
I think that it can be a good starting position for engine-engine games to see the strong engines that know to avoid bxa7 and know to win with white.

After bxa7 Ra8 I believe that black should win with the simple plan Rxa7 b5 and later Bb7.
This is not a legal position of classical chess ( No way to reach this position legally).

Engines are tuned on " Traditional chess on legal positions".

Re: positions when humans are stronger than engines

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:33 pm
by Dann Corbit
Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:42 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:19 pm


Hopefully the following position is good enough.
sting also blunder by bxa7

try to play with your favourite engine with both sides.
I think that it can be a good starting position for engine-engine games to see the strong engines that know to avoid bxa7 and know to win with white.

After bxa7 Ra8 I believe that black should win with the simple plan Rxa7 b5 and later Bb7.
This is not a legal position of classical chess ( No way to reach this position legally).

Engines are tuned on " Traditional chess on legal positions".
True enough for NN engines, but standard chess engines are trained on evaluation factors not related to the path to obtain the position.
Besides which, puzzle solving is another kind of chess and sometimes bizarre positions are formed that won't really happen but they are fun anyway.
Valentin Albillo springs to mind.

Re: positions when humans are stronger than engines

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:03 pm
by Uri Blass
Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:42 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:19 pm


Hopefully the following position is good enough.
sting also blunder by bxa7

try to play with your favourite engine with both sides.
I think that it can be a good starting position for engine-engine games to see the strong engines that know to avoid bxa7 and know to win with white.

After bxa7 Ra8 I believe that black should win with the simple plan Rxa7 b5 and later Bb7.
This is not a legal position of classical chess ( No way to reach this position legally).

Engines are tuned on " Traditional chess on legal positions".

You are right that the position is not legal but if I replace rook a7 by Queen a7 it is legal.



I believe that bxa7 is a losing move and the question how much time chess engines need to avoid it.

Re: positions when humans are stronger than engines

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:53 pm
by Uri Blass
The last position is not a good position because black can win even if white does not capture the queen by the plan
Ra8 Qb8 Qc7

I will try to fix it to a good position.

Re: positions when humans are stronger than engines

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:55 am
by Milos
Uri Blass wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:53 pm
The last position is not a good position because black can win even if white does not capture the queen by the plan
Ra8 Qb8 Qc7

I will try to fix it to a good position.
Black can probably with by sacing the queen either on b6 or later on d6. However, it's hard to find a blocked position that engines can't detect and that's in the same time legal (obtainable in a regular game).

Re: positions when humans are stronger than engines

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:28 am
by Nordlandia
Of course we have the moremovers from Otto Blathy that is unreachable for engines.