Fat Fritz 2

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Modern Times
Posts: 2769
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:02 pm

Re: Fat Fritz 2

Post by Modern Times » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:16 am

Ozymandias wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:10 am
M ANSARI wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:48 am
Someone has spent many hours working on something that has improved SF 12
Not even to the level of one month old SF dev:

Code: Select all

1	Stockfish 2021-01-11 64-bit	3537	+25	−24	80.5%	−227.5	38.0%	668	 
2	Fat Fritz 2 64-bit		3520	+27	−26	76.8%	−189.8	44.8%	520
Error margins. That may or may not be the position with more games.
.

Opinions expressed here are my own, and not necessarily those of the CCRL Group.

User avatar
Ozymandias
Posts: 1323
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:30 am

Re: Fat Fritz 2

Post by Ozymandias » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:22 am

Modern Times wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:16 am
Ozymandias wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:10 am
M ANSARI wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:48 am
Someone has spent many hours working on something that has improved SF 12
Not even to the level of one month old SF dev:

Code: Select all

1	Stockfish 2021-01-11 64-bit	3537	+25	−24	80.5%	−227.5	38.0%	668	 
2	Fat Fritz 2 64-bit		3520	+27	−26	76.8%	−189.8	44.8%	520
Error margins. That may or may not be the position with more games.
LOS is 82.8%. I'd be surprised if the tables were turned at this point, next week's update will tell, but Pohl's testing is similar and CCRL blitz places FF2 just barely ahead of SF12, so keep waiting.

Modern Times
Posts: 2769
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:02 pm

Re: Fat Fritz 2

Post by Modern Times » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:29 am

Did you look at chess960 ?
.

Opinions expressed here are my own, and not necessarily those of the CCRL Group.

User avatar
Ozymandias
Posts: 1323
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:30 am

Re: Fat Fritz 2

Post by Ozymandias » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:30 am

Never, not my cup of tea.

Modern Times
Posts: 2769
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:02 pm

Re: Fat Fritz 2

Post by Modern Times » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:44 am

Ozymandias wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:30 am
Never, not my cup of tea.
Fair enough.
.

Opinions expressed here are my own, and not necessarily those of the CCRL Group.

pohl4711
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:25 am
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: Fat Fritz 2

Post by pohl4711 » Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:43 am

Ozymandias wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:22 am
Modern Times wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:16 am
Ozymandias wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:10 am
M ANSARI wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:48 am
Someone has spent many hours working on something that has improved SF 12
Not even to the level of one month old SF dev:

Code: Select all

1	Stockfish 2021-01-11 64-bit	3537	+25	−24	80.5%	−227.5	38.0%	668	 
2	Fat Fritz 2 64-bit		3520	+27	−26	76.8%	−189.8	44.8%	520
Error margins. That may or may not be the position with more games.
LOS is 82.8%. I'd be surprised if the tables were turned at this point, next week's update will tell, but Pohl's testing is similar and CCRL blitz places FF2 just barely ahead of SF12, so keep waiting.
Please mention, that in my testrun, FF2 played with Contempt=+24 (default is 0), because I wanted a better comparability with my Stockfish-testruns (Stockfish has a default Contempt of +24) and because, I believe, that Contempt=0 will cost measureable Elo, if a really strong engine (like FF2 is) is tested vs. some weaker (and some much weaker) engines. So I expect measureable weaker results for FF2 in the CEGT for example.

https://www.sp-cc.de/

User avatar
Ozymandias
Posts: 1323
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:30 am

Re: Fat Fritz 2

Post by Ozymandias » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:31 pm

pohl4711 wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:43 am
Ozymandias wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:22 am
Modern Times wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:16 am
Ozymandias wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:10 am
M ANSARI wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:48 am
Someone has spent many hours working on something that has improved SF 12
Not even to the level of one month old SF dev:

Code: Select all

1	Stockfish 2021-01-11 64-bit	3537	+25	−24	80.5%	−227.5	38.0%	668	 
2	Fat Fritz 2 64-bit		3520	+27	−26	76.8%	−189.8	44.8%	520
Error margins. That may or may not be the position with more games.
LOS is 82.8%. I'd be surprised if the tables were turned at this point, next week's update will tell, but Pohl's testing is similar and CCRL blitz places FF2 just barely ahead of SF12, so keep waiting.
Please mention, that in my testrun, FF2 played with Contempt=+24 (default is 0), because I wanted a better comparability with my Stockfish-testruns (Stockfish has a default Contempt of +24) and because, I believe, that Contempt=0 will cost measureable Elo, if a really strong engine (like FF2 is) is tested vs. some weaker (and some much weaker) engines. So I expect measureable weaker results for FF2 in the CEGT for example.

https://www.sp-cc.de/
So with default options, FF2 results would be worse?

Alayan
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:48 pm
Full name: Alayan Feh

Re: Fat Fritz 2

Post by Alayan » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:41 pm

connor_mcmonigle wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:36 am
Your argument, in my understanding, is that some third party might have licensed the parameters included in the binary ChessBase is distributing under a different, GPLv3 incompatible, license. Therefore, ChessBase is illegally distributing the binary. Furthermore, I, as the recipient of the GPLv3 licensed binary from ChessBase or those having indirectly received the binary from ChessBase, would be at fault, legally, were I to extract the parameters from the binary.

This doesn't make any sense for two reasons:

1.
In the above description of the situation, I would not be at fault as ChessBase would be responsible for all damages incurred on said third party as I, as the unsuspecting recipient, could have had no way of knowing that ChessBase illegally distributed the binary to me.
Yes, dkappe's grand claim that "you will go in prison" if you redistribute the FF2 binary (something you are entitled to because of the GPL license) is nonsensical because the only way this redistribution would violate someone's copyright is if ChessBase itself is violating copyright.

The risk of ChessBase engaging legal actions (slow, complicated, costly) are very low. The complications of the legal process are why ChessBase still dares to sell Houdini 6, they or Houdart haven't been sued over it. But furthermore, if they went to court, they would have very low chances of winning because facts are against them. They'd have to hope the judge is stupid.

Raphexon
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:00 am
Full name: Henk Drost

Re: Fat Fritz 2

Post by Raphexon » Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:09 pm

Ozymandias wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:31 pm
pohl4711 wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:43 am
Ozymandias wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:22 am
Modern Times wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:16 am
Ozymandias wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:10 am
M ANSARI wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:48 am
Someone has spent many hours working on something that has improved SF 12
Not even to the level of one month old SF dev:

Code: Select all

1	Stockfish 2021-01-11 64-bit	3537	+25	−24	80.5%	−227.5	38.0%	668	 
2	Fat Fritz 2 64-bit		3520	+27	−26	76.8%	−189.8	44.8%	520
Error margins. That may or may not be the position with more games.
LOS is 82.8%. I'd be surprised if the tables were turned at this point, next week's update will tell, but Pohl's testing is similar and CCRL blitz places FF2 just barely ahead of SF12, so keep waiting.
Please mention, that in my testrun, FF2 played with Contempt=+24 (default is 0), because I wanted a better comparability with my Stockfish-testruns (Stockfish has a default Contempt of +24) and because, I believe, that Contempt=0 will cost measureable Elo, if a really strong engine (like FF2 is) is tested vs. some weaker (and some much weaker) engines. So I expect measureable weaker results for FF2 in the CEGT for example.

https://www.sp-cc.de/
So with default options, FF2 results would be worse?
There's some evidence of it:

https://github.com/official-stockfish/S ... ssues/3168

But the effect is smaller than the margin of error.

dkappe
Posts: 896
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:52 pm
Full name: Dietrich Kappe

Re: Fat Fritz 2

Post by dkappe » Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:49 pm

Alayan wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:41 pm

Yes, dkappe's grand claim that "you will go in prison" if you redistribute the FF2 binary (something you are entitled to because of the GPL license) is nonsensical because the only way this redistribution would violate someone's copyright is if ChessBase itself is violating copyright.

The risk of ChessBase engaging legal actions (slow, complicated, costly) are very low. The complications of the legal process are why ChessBase still dares to sell Houdini 6, they or Houdart haven't been sued over it. But furthermore, if they went to court, they would have very low chances of winning because facts are against them. They'd have to hope the judge is stupid.
Where did I make a grand claim that you would go to prison? A throwaway joke with a following LOL? Copyright violation is usually a civil matter, though the number of criminal prosecutions for piracy and willful copyright infringement has been on the rise. I doubt any prosecutor would bother.

As for your rights under the GPL, you need to go back to remedial class.

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