How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:59 pm
What is your opinion can the 1450 engine get a draw ?
Computer Chess Club
https://talkchess.com/
I was able to give queen odds with about even results to MacHack in 1967, and it got a USCF rating of about 1530. A few years ago I beat Novag Constellation in a game at rook odds played here, it was rated in the 1800s USCF (maybe 1700s FIDE). So I think it is obvious that the odds-giver will win in your hypothetical pairing. Dragon can give knight odds to engines with ratings like 2200-2300 (depending on time control), so rook odds should be about right for maybe 1900-2000 engines in Rapid games.
jefk wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:44 pm as for names (for reviving chess with material odds as handicap)
now also found this:
https://www.chessvariants.com/other.dir/oddschess.html
gives a list of options, but for the rest not worked out
into a consistent system. but i should mention him i guess
in the description of 'fair-chess' (as well as LK regarding
a further need of calibrating rating diffs vs material odds
Great Now try a Queen Odds, I believe that a Queen is too much to give away versus Stash 10.0 or TTEmhouppin wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:49 pm FWIW, I ran a minimatch between SF dev and Stash 10.0 (roughly 1650 Elo at CCRL 40/4), time control 3'+2", 1 thread, 256 MB hash, 5-man Syzygy tablebases for SF, I used starting position with one of the 4 rooks removed. Here are the games:
[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.02.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stash 10.0"]
[Black "Stockfish Dev"]
[Result "0-1"]
[FEN "1nbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQk - 0 1"]
[GameDuration "00:04:53"]
[GameEndTime "2021-02-11T18:17:34.760 Paris, Madrid"]
[GameStartTime "2021-02-11T18:12:40.817 Paris, Madrid"]
[PlyCount "54"]
[SetUp "1"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]
1. e4 {+5.60/9 5.6s} e6 {-6.71/26 13s} 2. Nc3 {+5.70/8 5.5s} d5 {-6.73/24 1.4s}
3. exd5 {+6.05/8 5.5s} exd5 {-6.75/27 3.1s} 4. Nf3 {+6.06/8 5.4s}
Nf6 {-6.75/26 2.4s} 5. d4 {+6.28/8 5.3s} Bd6 {-6.73/29 14s}
6. Nb5 {+6.70/8 5.3s} O-O {-6.78/23 2.6s} 7. Nxa7 {+7.00/8 5.2s}
Bd7 {-5.92/22 3.2s} 8. Ne5 {+6.82/7 5.1s} c6 {-4.96/21 2.7s}
9. Bf4 {+6.95/7 5.1s} Bf5 {-5.10/28 25s} 10. Qf3 {+6.72/7 5.0s}
Bxc2 {-2.97/22 2.6s} 11. Rc1 {+6.02/7 5.0s} Qa5+ {-3.35/31 37s}
12. Bd2 {+5.50/8 4.9s} Qa4 {-3.30/24 1.9s} 13. Qh3 {+5.12/7 4.8s}
Re8 {-2.57/25 14s} 14. Bc3 {+5.60/7 4.8s} g6 {-1.99/28 4.5s}
15. g4 {+5.03/7 4.7s} Ne4 {-1.40/28 16s} 16. Qg2 {+4.52/7 4.7s}
Nd7 {+3.18/22 2.3s} 17. Nc8 {+5.16/8 4.6s} Bxe5 {+6.48/25 2.4s}
18. dxe5 {+4.00/8 4.6s} Nxc3 {+9.13/25 4.9s} 19. bxc3 {+1.71/8 4.5s}
Nxe5 {+9.64/25 2.2s} 20. Be2 {-1.15/8 4.5s} Nd3+ {+9.90/24 2.4s}
21. Kd2 {-2.35/9 4.4s} Qf4+ {+M13/51 2.4s} 22. Kxc2 {-2.90/9 4.4s}
Rxe2+ {+M11/65 2.5s} 23. Kb1 {-6.55/8 4.3s} Qd2 {+M9/80 2.3s}
24. Ne7+ {-M8/7 4.3s} Kf8 {+M7/245 0.26s} 25. Nxg6+ {-M6/7 4.2s}
Kg7 {+M5/245 0.011s} 26. Rc2 {-M4/7 4.2s} Qxc2+ {+M3/245 0.007s}
27. Ka1 {-M2/9 4.1s} Qxa2# {+M1/245 0.006s, Black mates} 0-1
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.02.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stash 10.0"]
[Black "Stockfish Dev"]
[Result "0-1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbn1/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQq - 0 1"]
[GameDuration "00:05:44"]
[GameEndTime "2021-02-11T18:27:28.294 Paris, Madrid"]
[GameStartTime "2021-02-11T18:21:44.102 Paris, Madrid"]
[PlyCount "68"]
[SetUp "1"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]
1. e4 {+5.60/9 5.6s} d5 {-7.10/28 19s} 2. exd5 {+6.11/8 5.5s}
Qxd5 {-7.29/27 9.5s} 3. Nc3 {+6.28/8 5.5s} Qd6 {-7.32/25 2.0s}
4. Bd3 {+6.43/8 5.4s} Nf6 {-7.03/26 6.4s} 5. Ne4 {+6.55/8 5.3s}
Nxe4 {-6.82/24 1.7s} 6. Bxe4 {+6.49/8 5.3s} f5 {-6.63/27 5.4s}
7. Bd3 {+6.48/8 5.2s} Nc6 {-6.75/27 8.2s} 8. Qh5+ {+7.16/8 5.1s}
g6 {-6.75/24 1.9s} 9. Qxh7 {+7.87/8 5.1s} Bd7 {-7.25/32 30s}
10. Ne2 {+7.75/7 5.0s} Ne5 {-6.48/23 4.7s} 11. h4 {+7.96/8 5.0s}
O-O-O {-5.50/25 4.5s} 12. h5 {+8.52/8 4.9s} Qf6 {-5.55/24 3.2s}
13. hxg6 {+8.75/8 4.8s} Bg7 {-5.65/27 9.8s} 14. Qh2 {+8.72/8 4.8s}
Nxd3+ {-5.50/23 2.2s} 15. cxd3 {+8.63/7 4.7s} Rh8 {-5.75/25 5.4s}
16. Qg1 {+9.56/8 4.7s} Re8 {-5.59/25 7.1s} 17. f3 {+9.39/7 4.6s}
Kb8 {-5.54/24 2.8s} 18. Nf4 {+9.83/6 4.6s} Qd6 {-4.69/28 12s}
19. g3 {+9.45/8 4.5s} Bd4 {-3.93/25 7.3s} 20. Qg2 {+9.62/8 4.5s}
e5 {-4.34/30 11s} 21. Ne2 {+9.70/8 4.4s} Qxg6 {-4.66/31 4.6s}
22. Nxd4 {+9.87/8 4.4s} exd4+ {-4.67/31 3.8s} 23. Kf2 {+9.48/8 4.3s}
f4 {-4.71/29 3.0s} 24. Rg1 {+9.66/7 4.3s} fxg3+ {0.00/35 2.4s}
25. Qxg3 {+9.81/8 4.2s} Qe6 {0.00/40 2.8s} 26. Qg7 {+11.31/7 4.2s}
Qe2+ {+5.90/25 3.6s} 27. Kg3 {+9.81/7 4.1s} Bc6 {+6.09/26 3.7s}
28. Qxd4 {+10.80/6 4.1s} Rg8+ {+M13/62 2.6s} 29. Kh3 {+4.30/8 4.1s}
Bd7+ {+M11/77 2.6s} 30. Rg4 {-14.15/8 4.0s} Qxf3+ {+M9/112 2.5s}
31. Kh2 {-M8/9 4.0s} Bxg4 {+M7/245 1.5s} 32. a4 {-M6/8 3.9s} Bd7 {+M5/245 0.14s}
33. Qxa7+ {-M4/8 3.9s} Kxa7 {+M3/245 0.005s} 34. Ra3 {-M2/8 3.9s}
Qg2# {+M1/245 0.005s, Black mates} 0-1
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.02.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish Dev"]
[Black "Stash 10.0"]
[Result "1-0"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1"]
[GameDuration "00:09:08"]
[GameEndTime "2021-02-11T18:42:18.948 Paris, Madrid"]
[GameStartTime "2021-02-11T18:33:10.815 Paris, Madrid"]
[PlyCount "131"]
[SetUp "1"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]
1. e3 {-6.40/27 18s} e5 {+5.18/8 5.6s} 2. d4 {-6.49/23 1.7s} exd4 {+5.61/8 5.5s}
3. exd4 {-6.51/25 2.3s} Nf6 {+5.70/8 5.5s} 4. Bd3 {-6.68/28 22s}
c5 {+6.45/8 5.4s} 5. Nf3 {-6.59/25 6.7s} cxd4 {+6.56/8 5.3s}
6. Nxd4 {-6.18/26 3.5s} Nc6 {+6.80/8 5.3s} 7. Qe2+ {-6.33/23 2.7s}
Qe7 {+6.84/9 5.2s} 8. Nb5 {-6.37/28 20s} Qxe2+ {+7.10/8 5.1s}
9. Bxe2 {-6.19/26 1.6s} Kd8 {+6.84/7 5.1s} 10. Bf4 {-6.19/29 4.4s}
Nd5 {+7.27/8 5.0s} 11. Bg3 {-6.03/24 2.4s} a6 {+7.23/8 5.0s}
12. Nd6 {-6.63/30 26s} Bxd6 {+7.69/8 4.9s} 13. Bxd6 {-6.63/23 2.3s}
Nd4 {+7.73/8 4.8s} 14. Bd3 {-6.52/29 14s} Nb5 {+7.89/8 4.8s}
15. Bg3 {-5.80/23 1.7s} Nb4 {+7.99/8 4.7s} 16. Bxb5 {-5.94/29 35s}
axb5 {+9.61/9 4.7s} 17. Kd2 {-6.06/26 1.9s} Rxa2 {+9.88/8 4.6s}
18. Na3 {-5.90/22 2.2s} Nd5 {+9.81/8 4.6s} 19. Nxb5 {-5.59/21 2.0s}
Rxb2 {+9.25/8 4.5s} 20. Nd6 {-5.83/22 4.0s} Rf8 {+9.70/8 4.5s}
21. Ra1 {-6.09/27 17s} Nb4 {+9.80/8 4.4s} 22. Kc3 {-5.53/25 3.6s}
Rxc2+ {+6.70/9 4.4s} 23. Kxb4 {-3.39/21 1.3s} Ke7 {+6.95/8 4.3s}
24. Re1+ {-2.90/23 6.0s} Kf6 {+6.95/8 4.3s} 25. Be5+ {0.00/26 1.6s}
Kg6 {+6.70/8 4.2s} 26. Re3 {0.00/33 3.5s} Rxf2 {+6.50/8 4.2s}
27. Rg3+ {0.00/38 1.9s} Kh5 {+3.85/9 4.1s} 28. Rh3+ {0.00/41 1.9s}
Kg6 {+6.25/9 4.1s} 29. Rg3+ {0.00/43 3.0s} Kh5 {+3.85/9 4.1s}
30. Rh3+ {0.00/49 13s} Kg4 {0.00/9 4.0s} 31. Rg3+ {0.00/47 1.4s}
Kh4 {0.00/9 4.0s} 32. Bxg7 {+0.34/29 1.5s} Rd8 {+3.55/8 3.9s}
33. Bh6 {+2.02/25 1.5s} f6 {+3.55/9 3.9s} 34. Be3 {+2.28/27 1.5s}
Rb2+ {0.00/9 3.9s} 35. Kc3 {+2.40/24 1.5s} Ra2 {0.00/9 3.8s}
36. Nf7 {+2.60/26 1.3s} Ra3+ {+2.20/9 3.8s} 37. Kd2 {+3.17/22 1.5s}
Rxe3 {+1.05/9 3.8s} 38. Kxe3 {+3.89/24 1.5s} Re8+ {-1.95/10 3.7s}
39. Kf4 {+3.84/25 3.5s} Kh5 {-2.40/10 3.7s} 40. Nd6 {+3.90/25 1.4s}
Re2 {-2.60/10 3.6s} 41. Rg7 {+3.98/23 2.4s} Rf2+ {-2.70/10 3.6s}
42. Ke3 {+4.00/25 1.6s} Ra2 {-2.75/9 3.6s} 43. Nf5 {+4.92/25 1.4s}
Ra3+ {0.00/9 3.5s} 44. Kd2 {+5.02/27 3.1s} Ra2+ {-4.30/8 3.5s}
45. Kc3 {+5.19/26 1.5s} Rxg2 {-6.25/9 3.5s} 46. Rxg2 {+5.25/22 1.4s}
b6 {-6.80/9 3.5s} 47. Nd6 {+5.88/24 3.9s} Ba6 {-7.45/9 3.4s}
48. Rg7 {+5.35/24 6.4s} h6 {-7.95/9 3.4s} 49. Nf5 {+6.05/20 0.86s}
Bb7 {-7.40/9 3.4s} 50. Kd2 {+54.00/33 1.1s} b5 {-6.15/8 3.3s}
51. Ke3 {+152.57/42 1.0s} Bd5 {-7.60/9 3.3s} 52. Kf4 {+152.58/44 1.1s}
Be6 {-8.70/9 3.3s} 53. Rg4 {+152.59/44 1.3s} Bxf5 {-8.70/10 3.3s}
54. Kxf5 {+M27/43 1.8s} d6 {-10.65/11 3.2s} 55. Rd4 {+M25/44 1.5s}
d5 {-11.05/11 3.2s} 56. Kxf6 {+M23/46 1.5s} b4 {-11.20/11 3.2s}
57. Rxb4 {+M19/46 1.7s} d4 {-10.75/11 3.2s} 58. Kf5 {+M17/47 1.4s}
Kh4 {-10.75/10 3.1s} 59. Rxd4+ {+M15/49 1.4s} Kh3 {-12.65/11 3.1s}
60. Kf4 {+M13/51 1.4s} Kg2 {-13.05/11 3.1s} 61. Rd2+ {+M11/83 1.5s}
Kh3 {-M10/11 3.1s} 62. Kf3 {+M9/245 1.3s} h5 {-M8/11 3.1s}
63. Rd4 {+M7/245 0.041s} Kxh2 {-M6/11 3.0s} 64. Rh4+ {+M5/245 0.009s}
Kg1 {-M4/11 3.0s} 65. Rxh5 {+M3/245 0.006s} Kf1 {-M2/11 3.0s}
66. Rh1# {+M1/245 0.005s, White mates} 1-0
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.02.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish Dev"]
[Black "Stash 10.0"]
[Result "1-0"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBN1 w Qkq - 0 1"]
[GameDuration "00:02:47"]
[GameEndTime "2021-02-11T18:45:39.902 Paris, Madrid"]
[GameStartTime "2021-02-11T18:42:52.379 Paris, Madrid"]
[PlyCount "41"]
[SetUp "1"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]
1. e4 {-6.46/24 3.8s} d5 {+5.38/9 5.6s} 2. exd5 {-6.36/23 2.3s}
Qxd5 {+5.58/8 5.5s} 3. Nc3 {-6.37/24 3.7s} Qe5+ {+6.29/8 5.5s}
4. Nge2 {-6.40/25 2.7s} Qxh2 {+6.69/8 5.4s} 5. d4 {-6.21/26 2.5s}
e5 {+6.91/8 5.3s} 6. dxe5 {-6.13/24 4.9s} Qxe5 {+7.01/8 5.3s}
7. Bf4 {-6.01/26 5.7s} Qc5 {+7.21/8 5.2s} 8. Nd5 {-5.62/24 4.4s}
Bd6 {+7.34/8 5.1s} 9. b4 {-5.55/26 3.8s} Qc6 {+7.35/8 5.1s}
10. Nec3 {-5.12/25 4.1s} a6 {+7.55/8 5.0s} 11. b5 {-2.55/26 3.1s}
Qd7 {+7.88/8 5.0s} 12. Qd4 {-2.34/27 3.8s} Nf6 {+7.74/8 4.9s}
13. Qe3+ {-3.00/33 9.7s} Kf8 {+8.47/9 4.8s} 14. Nxf6 {-2.37/26 3.1s}
gxf6 {+4.07/9 4.8s} 15. Bh6+ {+M13/66 3.1s} Kg8 {+3.99/8 4.7s}
16. O-O-O {+M11/74 3.2s} Ba3+ {+8.05/8 4.7s} 17. Kb1 {+M9/102 0.52s}
Bd6 {-M8/8 4.6s} 18. Ne4 {+M7/245 2.8s} Qxb5+ {-M6/8 4.6s}
19. Bxb5 {+M5/245 0.014s} Nd7 {-M4/8 4.5s} 20. Nxf6+ {+M3/245 0.007s}
Nxf6 {-M2/8 4.5s} 21. Qg5# {+M1/245 0.006s, White mates} 1-0
[/pgn]
It would seem Rook odds are still too tactical for low rated engines to handle. I may ran another minimatch with a more recent version of Stash to get an idea of where the turning point is.
as for my current 'beliefs', don't have much about suchso I would like to know what do you believe.
I just found out that Stockfish latest version can NOT beat TTE rated around 1480 with a Queen Odds at TC 60'+1" Probably the latest version of Komodo can, since Larry Kaufman gave special instructions to play with Odds, but it has to be testedjefk wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:59 pm a bit more info about chess handicaps
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_(chess)
here's a bit more from the historical perspective:
http://www.edochess.ca/batgirl/odds-giving.html
Uri Blass claimed in this forum he can beat most
chess players with queen plus double rook odds.
(but then includes unrated players). well there are|
players who hardly know the rules, so it might be true.
As for ratings vs material odds, it's a better idea to look
at rating ratio (vs difference) so Nakamura vs 1400 is
2.0 ratio, but that's also for a 1200 vs 600 player. Queens odds?
maybe , but that is approx 8.5 points and to get a more
balanced game maybe other material odds also can be
applied (eg. rook plus bishop odds instead of queen).
A matter of trial and error, but then again, accuracy isn't
so important i guess, because i think of a self-correcting
system (of rating ratio's). More simple would be just
differences for rating 'classes' as superGM, GM, IM, NM
A,B,C etc. players