How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

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jefk
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Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by jefk » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:53 pm

CQ
maybe Nakamura should have talked a little bit less, and have
thought a bit more about a plan how to play with such handicap;
btw Piranha nowadays is rated approx 2000...

LK
lots of coverage of handicap chess, both between humans and in engine vs human games, in my soon-to-be published book "Chess Board Options". In my opinion, the most important question regarding handicap chess is which handicap or handicaps should fill the large gap between f7 odds and b1 (or g1) odds
whereby i don't like the extra move odds (too much deviation from
chess rules), i think by combination of b/w odds (like eg f2/c7 (*))
such gaps can be filled. Maybe you should mention 'Fair-Chess' in your
book !? just a suggestion (apparently you didn't look at it and indeed
it should be (and will be updated a little); and unfortunately the
zillions game doesn't seem to be supported anymore, but you can download
a free trial (huh maybe ask a certain Mark Lefler, for example :)

Btw we don't have chess clubs here in schools in NL like eg in Russia
and apparently sometimes in the USA (except for some exceptions maybe);
chess is still regarded here as something for nerds, apparently.

(*) which will give an 'equal' game (getting rid of the White advantage_
better than Armageddon chess i would suggest. just my 2cnts
jefk

Chessqueen
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:02 pm

jefk wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:53 pm
CQ

maybe Nakamura should have talked a little bit less, and have
thought a bit more about a plan how to play with such handicap;
btw Piranha nowadays is rated approx 2000...
Itf could be with a newer version but I downloaded this version Piranha 0.5 long time ago and this is the CCRL Blitz rating

http://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/404/cgi/e ... anha%200.5

Piranha 0.5 in CCRL Blitz, 2021-02-07
Ponder off, General book up to 12 moves, up to 6 piece EGTB
Time control: From Jan 2020, equivalent to 2'+1" on an Intel i7-4770K. See the "about" page.
Tested by CCRL team, 2005-2021, http://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/404/

CCRL Blitz main list:
Piranha 0.5 is #601 with rating of 1499 Elo points (+10 -10),
based on 4891 games: 1776 wins, 2427 losses and 688 draws
Score: 43.3%, Average opponent: +57.5, Draws: 14.1%


Chessqueen
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:59 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:02 pm
jefk wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:53 pm
CQ

maybe Nakamura should have talked a little bit less, and have
thought a bit more about a plan how to play with such handicap;
btw Piranha nowadays is rated approx 2000...
Itf could be with a newer version but I downloaded this version Piranha 0.5 long time ago and this is the CCRL Blitz rating

http://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/404/cgi/e ... anha%200.5

Piranha 0.5 in CCRL Blitz, 2021-02-07
Ponder off, General book up to 12 moves, up to 6 piece EGTB
Time control: From Jan 2020, equivalent to 2'+1" on an Intel i7-4770K. See the "about" page.
Tested by CCRL team, 2005-2021, http://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/404/

CCRL Blitz main list:
Piranha 0.5 is #601 with rating of 1499 Elo points (+10 -10),
based on 4891 games: 1776 wins, 2427 losses and 688 draws
Score: 43.3%, Average opponent: +57.5, Draws: 14.1%


lkaufman
Posts: 4524
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
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Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by lkaufman » Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:32 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:27 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:29 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:34 pm
jefk wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:59 pm
a bit more info about chess handicaps
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_(chess)
here's a bit more from the historical perspective:
http://www.edochess.ca/batgirl/odds-giving.html

Uri Blass claimed in this forum he can beat most
chess players with queen plus double rook odds.
(but then includes unrated players). well there are|
players who hardly know the rules, so it might be true.

As for ratings vs material odds, it's a better idea to look
at rating ratio (vs difference) so Nakamura vs 1400 is
2.0 ratio, but that's also for a 1200 vs 600 player. Queens odds?
maybe , but that is approx 8.5 points and to get a more
balanced game maybe other material odds also can be
applied (eg. rook plus bishop odds instead of queen).
A matter of trial and error, but then again, accuracy isn't
so important i guess, because i think of a self-correcting
system (of rating ratio's). More simple would be just
differences for rating 'classes' as superGM, GM, IM, NM
A,B,C etc. players
I just found out that Stockfish latest version can NOT beat TTE rated around 1480 with a Queen Odds at TC 60'+1" Probably the latest version of Komodo can, since Larry Kaufman gave special instructions to play with Odds, but it has to be tested :roll:
I have found that in a typical Elementary School chess club, only the top 10-15% are able to beat me with queen and two rooks handicap, the average such kid needs another knight or even two knights removed as well to have a chance. Usually the best player in the school needs about queen and knight odds, though of course occasionally some school has a kid who can win at queen odds.
Yes, it does make some sense to use the ratio of ratings for handicaps, although ratings are inherently linear, because the frequency and magnitude of errors declines as ratings rise, so knight odds for example equates to a much higher win percentage at GM level than at novice level.
I have lots of coverage of handicap chess, both between humans and in engine vs human games, in my soon-to-be published book "Chess Board Options". In my opinion, the most important question regarding handicap chess is which handicap or handicaps should fill the large gap between f7 odds and b1 (or g1) odds. The historical answer was "pawn and two moves", but even with this one included the gap to knight odds is still quite large, and even "pawn and three" still leaves a pretty sizable gap to knight odds.
1)What are the ages in typical elementary school chess club?
I know that in israel elementary school is usually between ages 7-12 when 7 is first grade and 12 is 6th grade.

2)I wonder about the meaning of the top 10-15% that are able to beat you with queen and 2 rooks handicap.
The top 10-15% of what group do you mean?

The top 10-15% of children who play in some chess club that you visit may be different than the top 10-15% of children who know the chess rules and
may be different than the top 10-15% of the children that part of them even do not know the chess rules.
In the USA nowadays Elementary school finishes with 5th grade, so the chess clubs are ages 6 to 10 (or 11 late in the school year). The group I refer to is those who choose to join a chess club; they should in theory know the rules, although of course some of the young ones will forget details like en passant at times. Not all schools have chess clubs; those which do tend to be good schools.
Komodo rules!

lkaufman
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Location: Maryland USA
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Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by lkaufman » Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:39 pm

jefk wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:53 pm
CQ
maybe Nakamura should have talked a little bit less, and have
thought a bit more about a plan how to play with such handicap;
btw Piranha nowadays is rated approx 2000...

LK
lots of coverage of handicap chess, both between humans and in engine vs human games, in my soon-to-be published book "Chess Board Options". In my opinion, the most important question regarding handicap chess is which handicap or handicaps should fill the large gap between f7 odds and b1 (or g1) odds
whereby i don't like the extra move odds (too much deviation from
chess rules), i think by combination of b/w odds (like eg f2/c7 (*))
such gaps can be filled. Maybe you should mention 'Fair-Chess' in your
book !? just a suggestion (apparently you didn't look at it and indeed
it should be (and will be updated a little); and unfortunately the
zillions game doesn't seem to be supported anymore, but you can download
a free trial (huh maybe ask a certain Mark Lefler, for example :)

Btw we don't have chess clubs here in schools in NL like eg in Russia
and apparently sometimes in the USA (except for some exceptions maybe);
chess is still regarded here as something for nerds, apparently.

(*) which will give an 'equal' game (getting rid of the White advantage_
better than Armageddon chess i would suggest. just my 2cnts
Is there someplace on the Web that lists all the handicaps you propose as "Fair-Chess"? All I found was a general description. If not perhaps you can list them here. In particular, what handicaps do you list between f7 odds and b1 odds?
Komodo rules!

Chessqueen
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:37 am

lkaufman wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:39 pm
jefk wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:53 pm
CQ
maybe Nakamura should have talked a little bit less, and have
thought a bit more about a plan how to play with such handicap;
btw Piranha nowadays is rated approx 2000...

LK
lots of coverage of handicap chess, both between humans and in engine vs human games, in my soon-to-be published book "Chess Board Options". In my opinion, the most important question regarding handicap chess is which handicap or handicaps should fill the large gap between f7 odds and b1 (or g1) odds
whereby i don't like the extra move odds (too much deviation from
chess rules), i think by combination of b/w odds (like eg f2/c7 (*))
such gaps can be filled. Maybe you should mention 'Fair-Chess' in your
book !? just a suggestion (apparently you didn't look at it and indeed
it should be (and will be updated a little); and unfortunately the
zillions game doesn't seem to be supported anymore, but you can download
a free trial (huh maybe ask a certain Mark Lefler, for example :)

Btw we don't have chess clubs here in schools in NL like eg in Russia
and apparently sometimes in the USA (except for some exceptions maybe);
chess is still regarded here as something for nerds, apparently.

(*) which will give an 'equal' game (getting rid of the White advantage_
better than Armageddon chess i would suggest. just my 2cnts
Is there someplace on the Web that lists all the handicaps you propose as "Fair-Chess"? All I found was a general description. If not perhaps you can list them here. In particular, what handicaps do you list between f7 odds and b1 odds?
I knew that picking the f2 pawn + the b1 Knight was unfair for Stockfish, but I only did this After Komodo13.3 beat Pigeon 1.5.1 and Cdrill rated close to 1800 by CCRL, which clearly tell me that Komodo knows how to handle Odds much better than Stockfish, it also beat me which I am ashame to post it here :roll: :mrgreen:

Chessqueen
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:16 pm

Well since I mentioned it I feel that I owed you to post this game where Komodo 13.3 with contempt = 180 beat Pigeon rated 1836. If you feel that you want to see the Log file I will post it.


jefk
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:07 pm
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Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by jefk » Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:56 am

mr LK wrote:
Is there someplace on the Web that lists all the handicaps you propose as "Fair-Chess"? All I found was a general description. If not perhaps you can list them here. In particular, what handicaps do you list between f7 odds and b1 odds?
the Fair-hess (FC) system is found in the download here
(with a zillions (*) prototype)
https://sourceforge.net/projects/fairchess/

but it needs to be updated, as i see it know, working with
rating ratio, it could be something like this:
The higher rated player will play with White just like
in simultaneous exhibitions; at equal rating, White's f2
pawn is removed, and Black's c7 pawn (i checked such
a setup with two Nnue engines and this handicap combination
seems to compensate the White advantage pretty well.

As for your question regarding a gap between f7 and b1 handicap,
well imho we can use different combinations of pawns/pieces
Below at various higher levels or rating for White a description
of handicaps vs rating ratio;s as i would currently suggest:
(should be worked out later in a bit more detail)
so currently i have something like :
---------------------------------------------------------
White higher rating :
a) White 1.15x higher rating only f2 removed (not the c7 pawn)
b) White approx 1.3 higher rating, f2 and c3 removed
c) White approx 1.45 higher rating knight b1 removed
d) White .. 1.6 higher rating knight b1 and f2 removed
e) .. .. 1.75 .. .. knt b1 f2 and c3 and f2 removed
f) .. .. 1.9 .. .. rook a1, and f2 removed
g) .. .. >2.1 .. .. knight b1, c2, and f1 (bishop) removed
------------------------------------------------------
NB this is tentative, and although i intend to update
my Zillions rule-file for FC in such a way, i don't claim it's
accurate but it's a first trial, and my intention is to update
it in several steps, possibly with your cooperation and/or
suggestions (especially regarding the handicaps

As for time odds, or move odds, i prefer to keep it simple,
as i now am going to explain to 'cornfed' in another thread...

(*) the zillions program seems to be abandonware (**), although
there's still a demo for download available
(**) considering the discussion regarding Fritz532, i guess i
shouldn't include a (my) registration nr for Zillions in the
download although it would make sense for people who would like
to test it (for longer than the zillions trial period ..)
Zillions is much easier for developing testing slight deviations of
a chess variant than eg, winboard so i some way it's a pity
that it's not sold anymore; maybe they simply should make
it freeware, just a little hint :)
jefk

lkaufman
Posts: 4524
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
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Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by lkaufman » Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:56 pm

jefk wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:56 am
mr LK wrote:
Is there someplace on the Web that lists all the handicaps you propose as "Fair-Chess"? All I found was a general description. If not perhaps you can list them here. In particular, what handicaps do you list between f7 odds and b1 odds?
the Fair-hess (FC) system is found in the download here
(with a zillions (*) prototype)
https://sourceforge.net/projects/fairchess/

but it needs to be updated, as i see it know, working with
rating ratio, it could be something like this:
The higher rated player will play with White just like
in simultaneous exhibitions; at equal rating, White's f2
pawn is removed, and Black's c7 pawn (i checked such
a setup with two Nnue engines and this handicap combination
seems to compensate the White advantage pretty well.

As for your question regarding a gap between f7 and b1 handicap,
well imho we can use different combinations of pawns/pieces
Below at various higher levels or rating for White a description
of handicaps vs rating ratio;s as i would currently suggest:
(should be worked out later in a bit more detail)
so currently i have something like :
---------------------------------------------------------
White higher rating :
a) White 1.15x higher rating only f2 removed (not the c7 pawn)
b) White approx 1.3 higher rating, f2 and c3 removed
c) White approx 1.45 higher rating knight b1 removed
d) White .. 1.6 higher rating knight b1 and f2 removed
e) .. .. 1.75 .. .. knt b1 f2 and c3 and f2 removed
f) .. .. 1.9 .. .. rook a1, and f2 removed
g) .. .. >2.1 .. .. knight b1, c2, and f1 (bishop) removed
------------------------------------------------------
NB this is tentative, and although i intend to update
my Zillions rule-file for FC in such a way, i don't claim it's
accurate but it's a first trial, and my intention is to update
it in several steps, possibly with your cooperation and/or
suggestions (especially regarding the handicaps

As for time odds, or move odds, i prefer to keep it simple,
as i now am going to explain to 'cornfed' in another thread...

(*) the zillions program seems to be abandonware (**), although
there's still a demo for download available
(**) considering the discussion regarding Fritz532, i guess i
shouldn't include a (my) registration nr for Zillions in the
download although it would make sense for people who would like
to test it (for longer than the zillions trial period ..)
Zillions is much easier for developing testing slight deviations of
a chess variant than eg, winboard so i some way it's a pity
that it's not sold anymore; maybe they simply should make
it freeware, just a little hint :)
You give one handicap between pawn and knight, namely c2 +f2 (you wrote c3 + f2 but that's an obvious typo). That's fine, but not nearly enough steps for serious play. We found that at Rapid the c2 + f2 handicap was not enough even for Hikaru Nakamura vs. Komodo Dragon; he scored 1/2 out of 2 at that, and just 1.5 out of 8 at similar two pawn handicaps in total. But at the same Rapid time control (15' + 10"), I am at least even with Dragon at knight odds. The gap between me and Hikaru in Rapid play is probably about 700 elo points. So the difference between these two handicaps is more than that (at this level), maybe 900 elo or so. Clearly we need steps in between for use in matches between Dragon and human GMs. The obvious ones are various two Black pawn handicaps and various three White pawn handicaps, and/or knight for pawn handicaps. But taking too many pawns off really changes the game, much more so than removing a knight. Not sure what is best.
Komodo rules!

Chessqueen
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen » Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:29 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:56 pm
jefk wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:56 am
mr LK wrote:
Is there someplace on the Web that lists all the handicaps you propose as "Fair-Chess"? All I found was a general description. If not perhaps you can list them here. In particular, what handicaps do you list between f7 odds and b1 odds?
the Fair-hess (FC) system is found in the download here
(with a zillions (*) prototype)
https://sourceforge.net/projects/fairchess/

but it needs to be updated, as i see it know, working with
rating ratio, it could be something like this:
The higher rated player will play with White just like
in simultaneous exhibitions; at equal rating, White's f2
pawn is removed, and Black's c7 pawn (i checked such
a setup with two Nnue engines and this handicap combination
seems to compensate the White advantage pretty well.

As for your question regarding a gap between f7 and b1 handicap,
well imho we can use different combinations of pawns/pieces
Below at various higher levels or rating for White a description
of handicaps vs rating ratio;s as i would currently suggest:
(should be worked out later in a bit more detail)
so currently i have something like :
---------------------------------------------------------
White higher rating :
a) White 1.15x higher rating only f2 removed (not the c7 pawn)
b) White approx 1.3 higher rating, f2 and c3 removed
c) White approx 1.45 higher rating knight b1 removed
d) White .. 1.6 higher rating knight b1 and f2 removed
e) .. .. 1.75 .. .. knt b1 f2 and c3 and f2 removed
f) .. .. 1.9 .. .. rook a1, and f2 removed
g) .. .. >2.1 .. .. knight b1, c2, and f1 (bishop) removed
------------------------------------------------------
NB this is tentative, and although i intend to update
my Zillions rule-file for FC in such a way, i don't claim it's
accurate but it's a first trial, and my intention is to update
it in several steps, possibly with your cooperation and/or
suggestions (especially regarding the handicaps

As for time odds, or move odds, i prefer to keep it simple,
as i now am going to explain to 'cornfed' in another thread...

(*) the zillions program seems to be abandonware (**), although
there's still a demo for download available
(**) considering the discussion regarding Fritz532, i guess i
shouldn't include a (my) registration nr for Zillions in the
download although it would make sense for people who would like
to test it (for longer than the zillions trial period ..)
Zillions is much easier for developing testing slight deviations of
a chess variant than eg, winboard so i some way it's a pity
that it's not sold anymore; maybe they simply should make
it freeware, just a little hint :)
You give one handicap between pawn and knight, namely c2 +f2 (you wrote c3 + f2 but that's an obvious typo). That's fine, but not nearly enough steps for serious play. We found that at Rapid the c2 + f2 handicap was not enough even for Hikaru Nakamura vs. Komodo Dragon; he scored 1/2 out of 2 at that, and just 1.5 out of 8 at similar two pawn handicaps in total. But at the same Rapid time control (15' + 10"), I am at least even with Dragon at knight odds. The gap between me and Hikaru in Rapid play is probably about 700 elo points. So the difference between these two handicaps is more than that (at this level), maybe 900 elo or so. Clearly we need steps in between for use in matches between Dragon and human GMs. The obvious ones are various two Black pawn handicaps and various three White pawn handicaps, and/or knight for pawn handicaps. But taking too many pawns off really changes the game, much more so than removing a knight. Not sure what is best.
I was wondering if Komodo can give a Knight to GM Smeldon at TC 3'+1" and get at least a Draw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cZEFh ... inFinegold

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